Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)

[ChrisTheCat]

"Dear Denmark,
So you lost a war against us. Nothing to be ashamed of, happens all the time! Still, on land you were small but ferocious, and at sea you were actually pretty good, so given the massive gap in population, economy, technology, and culture, holding out for ten days wasn't bad.
Tell you what, let's say you give us any intel you happen to have on France and Austria, allow us free passage through your waters, state that Northern Schleswig is ours for all time, and make a public statement decrying the Black Prince; in return, we'll take no territory, and will lessen the indemnity to something actually payable. Think about it. Or if not...well, I must say that Aarhus is a pretty city, but maybe you'd prefer us to have this chat again in Copenhagen?
Hugs and kisses, Germany"

 

[Reisen Storm]

"Dear Denmark,
So you lost a war against us. Nothing to be ashamed of, happens all the time! Still, on land you were small but ferocious, and at sea you were actually pretty good, so given the massive gap in population, economy, technology, and culture, holding out for ten days wasn't bad.
Tell you what, let's say you give us any intel you happen to have on France and Austria, allow us free passage through your waters, state that Northern Schleswig is ours for all time, and make a public statement decrying the Black Prince; in return, we'll take no territory, and will lessen the indemnity to something actually payable. Think about it. Or if not...well, I must say that Aarhus is a pretty city, but maybe you'd prefer us to have this chat again in Copenhagen?
Hugs and kisses, Germany"

Germany asks to much of them. King Christian will never agree to these outrages demands.

 

[naraht]

In regards to the Black Prince, I'm trying to remember what ends up happening to each of the Bloc Sud heads of government that started the war. None of them came even close to the treatment that germany intends for the Black Prince.

 

[DanMcCollum]

In regards to the Black Prince, I'm trying to remember what ends up happening to each of the Bloc Sud heads of government that started the war. None of them came even close to the treatment that germany intends for the Black Prince.

If I'm recalling:

The CSA President was term limited out of office, but the US didn't seem to try to arrest him or anything of that sort during the occupation (which is kinda surprising, but it's not like the War Crimes trials were particularly effective, and trying a former head of state is a bad look in this era)

Obviously, Maximillian died peacefully and happy in bed. The PM of Mexico lost his office earlier.

The Emperor of Brazil still rules (and hopefully will continue to do so). The PM left office.

The President of Chile was forced to resign and his successors was assassinated.

So, yeah, some of them have suffered repercussions at the hands of their own people (electorally or otherwise) but none were punished by the US or other victorious powers.

 

[Ind89]

So, Denmark is going to remain a monarchy; either Christian X is forced to abdicate the throne in favor of one of his sons or the Germans might try to install a puppet. The latter scenario I don’t see happening. However, whoever sits on the throne is going to lose whatever powers the king still has.

 

[ElfNoble]

i hope steffie will be publicly executed in Munich by the Bavarian royal family

 

[KingSweden24]

I do find it interesting that in Germany there historians respect the danish troops I imagine it’s somewhat similar to the reputation of the Mexican American front in the gaw (but I could be over analyzing) also sad for democratic backslide of n Denmark

Europe as a whole is going to be way less open and democratic, and for much longer, than OTL

Now really Chile-ed. First, Chile lasted a whole helluva lot longer than Denmar is going to. Second, unlike the US attitue towards Chile, Germany's attitude towards Denmark is a bit akin to someone who's little brother took a swing at them. Yes, they're gonna put them down, but they don't want to hurt them too badly. As the text of the entry even states, Germany viewed them more as an obstacle than an enemy.

So Denmark is likely coming ou of this war in far, far, better shape that Chile ccould have dreamed of in the GAW.

Agreed. This is a brief, non-existential conflict that ends with their economy intact.

The long term consequence for Denmark is getting sucked into the German sphere and seeing its social-democratic/progressive momentum nipped in the bud and replaced with the aristocratic elite classical liberalism and oligarchy as represented by Scavenius. This obviously sucks for Denmark, but it’s still better than the conservative and reactionary Sweden.

"Dear Denmark,
So you lost a war against us. Nothing to be ashamed of, happens all the time! Still, on land you were small but ferocious, and at sea you were actually pretty good, so given the massive gap in population, economy, technology, and culture, holding out for ten days wasn't bad.
Tell you what, let's say you give us any intel you happen to have on France and Austria, allow us free passage through your waters, state that Northern Schleswig is ours for all time, and make a public statement decrying the Black Prince; in return, we'll take no territory, and will lessen the indemnity to something actually payable. Think about it. Or if not...well, I must say that Aarhus is a pretty city, but maybe you'd prefer us to have this chat again in Copenhagen?
Hugs and kisses, Germany"

Lol basically

If I'm recalling:

The CSA President was term limited out of office, but the US didn't seem to try to arrest him or anything of that sort during the occupation (which is kinda surprising, but it's not like the War Crimes trials were particularly effective, and trying a former head of state is a bad look in this era)

Obviously, Maximillian died peacefully and happy in bed. The PM of Mexico lost his office earlier.

The Emperor of Brazil still rules (and hopefully will continue to do so). The PM left office.

The President of Chile was forced to resign and his successors was assassinated.

So, yeah, some of them have suffered repercussions at the hands of their own people (electorally or otherwise) but none were punished by the US or other victorious powers.

This looks correct

So, Denmark is going to remain a monarchy; either Christian X is forced to abdicate the throne in favor of one of his sons or the Germans might try to install a puppet. The latter scenario I don’t see happening.

The Germans do have a number of Glucksburgs to chose from besides just Christian’s sons; they don’t need a random German Prince to find somebody they like and can rely upon

However, whoever sits on the throne is going to lose whatever powers the king still has.

Perhaps.

 

[naraht]

In terms of keeping Royals into the 20th century, this is a case where an Alternate tl has to make sense and reality doesn't. iOtl, five of the six major powers (I'm not counting the Serbs as major) going into WWI had monarchies. Of the five, *one* had a monarchy by 1920-ish. (the UK). ittl, without the 2nd French Republic (and others) as a model in 1918, why should any of the countries involved stop being Monarchies? My *honest* guess is that post-war, the winners won't push that much for a complete removal of the Monarchy in any state. Are the various descendants/claimants to the French throne from pre-Napolean still around ? Could the Germans find a *useful* Belgian prince (the youngest?)

 

[ElfNoble]

I think one of the Belgian kings relative (baudwin?) had the nickname the good prince so

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

So, Denmark is going to remain a monarchy; either Christian X is forced to abdicate the throne in favor of one of his sons or the Germans might try to install a puppet. The latter scenario I don’t see happening. However, whoever sits on the throne is going to lose whatever powers the king still has.

Tis why I said, far more likely that Christian is forced to abdicate in favor of his eldest son and heir. Not necessarily because of Germany directly but because the loss in this war means that whatever powers Christian had would be seriously curtailed. Likely far more so than what was lost IOTL with the 1920 Easter Crisis. Knowing the man, that is anathema to him, and between this and the loss of prestige (which would be far greater than the aforementioned Easter Crisis) would be enough cause to want him to vacate the throne.

But as KingSweden said, there is still the mainline branch of the House of Glucksburg still kicking about, even though they are Dukes without a Duchy. If Germany does feel some type of way, they could install them as Kings of Denmark. But at the same time, why would they?

 

[Belka DNW]

I think one of the Belgian kings relative (baudwin?) had the nickname the good prince so

Possible duke of Wallonia?

 

[ElfNoble]

Extend the duchy of wallonia to Calais and Lille lol

 

[Aged_Urbanist]

Europe as a whole is going to be way less open and democratic, and for much longer, than OTL

Ahh, another believer in my “the US rebuilding the entire developed world in its liberal, pluralist image after WWII was a good thing” theory!

So trying to take stock:
1. US is roughly as well off as OTL, albeit some of that is in the form of enhanced and efficient provision of public services that doesn’t translate into GDP numbers well so the per capita figure is mildly lower. That said, its industrial might is still second-to-none without the mixed curse of being the global reserve currency.
2. China is probably about as well-off in standards of living but without the massive (largely wasteful) public investments padding its GDP per capita figures, they also look a lot lower. That said, it has genuine and serious problems with public safety, health, and sanitation and probably an even bigger gap between the developed cities and other locales than OTL; Thailand or Mexico instead of proto-Japan. On the flip-flip side, its government isn’t extirpating various disfavored minority groups by reducing the birth rate to near-zero.
3. Latin America is better off from top to bottom, with Brazil and the Andean spine bordering on developed world, Mexico basically so, and Argentina completely so.
4. Much of Europe is vastly more backwards both economically and socially.
5. Colonialism continues for much longer in much of the world and ends bloodily so Africa and much of South Asia is likely to worse off then OTL, excepting maybe India and Vietnam.
6. Russia is… probably better off? Hard to say; without the Soviets the place will have a much more uneven coat of modernity applied over the 20th century than IOTL, but everything which is achieved will be driven by genuine needs, thus useful and contributing standards of living instead of, literally in some cases, mining coal to burn in a pile next to the mine.
7. The Anglosphere outside the US is maybe 60% as well off as IOTL on the whole, ranging from Canada or Australia slightly behind to the CSA below half its OTL output.

This is a serious screw for Europe and its colonial holdings, a serious wank for Latin America, and somewhere in between for the rest of the globe.

 

[GrimmJow007]

4. Much of Europe is vastly more backwards both economically and socially.

Economy?

I think that the ENTIRE continent not being destroyed in two world wars and then seeing its entire eastern part become communist, delaying its economic development by decades, is very positive for the European economy and demography.

 

[ElfNoble]

I mean I feel Germany is doing leagues better without the mustache in charge, no ww2 explosions, scientists stay in Germany, prosperous communities not genocideded or thrown to the East, and the nazis don’t get to run the German Economy which I think they did very poorly and they keep influential German populations all over the East (and there colonies I guess but that’s not a positive in my book tbh)

 

[lukedalton]

This is a serious screw for Europe and its colonial holdings, a serious wank for Latin America, and somewhere in between for the rest of the globe.

I don't know, a much more limited and shorter WWI is an enormous plus for the old continent and the fact that Russia and UK happily commerce and not be involved it mean that the economic effect of the war will be also lessened and also the food problem...hell just in Italy we had 600.000 deaths that can be traced to malnutrition and various illness (including the spanish flu) just the fact that remain the possibility to get food from other (more accessible and economic) sources greatly ameliorate the situation and for Germany it mean no Turnip winter
They will be terrible? Sure but OTL were insted on the apocalyptic range so yes, it's a nice improvement respect OTL

 

[KingSweden24]

In terms of keeping Royals into the 20th century, this is a case where an Alternate tl has to make sense and reality doesn't. iOtl, five of the six major powers (I'm not counting the Serbs as major) going into WWI had monarchies. Of the five, *one* had a monarchy by 1920-ish. (the UK). ittl, without the 2nd French Republic (and others) as a model in 1918, why should any of the countries involved stop being Monarchies? My *honest* guess is that post-war, the winners won't push that much for a complete removal of the Monarchy in any state. Are the various descendants/claimants to the French throne from pre-Napolean still around ? Could the Germans find a *useful* Belgian prince (the youngest?)

I think one of the Belgian kings relative (baudwin?) had the nickname the good prince so

Baudoin, the cousin of Leopold III, is an excellent potential candidate for the throne in Brussels

Tis why I said, far more likely that Christian is forced to abdicate in favor of his eldest son and heir. Not necessarily because of Germany directly but because the loss in this war means that whatever powers Christian had would be seriously curtailed. Likely far more so than what was lost IOTL with the 1920 Easter Crisis. Knowing the man, that is anathema to him, and between this and the loss of prestige (which would be far greater than the aforementioned Easter Crisis) would be enough cause to want him to vacate the throne.

Oh yeah, this is a way worse situation then the Easter Crisis. This isn’t the King exercising his prerogatives against the spirit of custom, this was him overriding Cabinet to plunge Denmark into war.

But as KingSweden said, there is still the mainline branch of the House of Glucksburg still kicking about, even though they are Dukes without a Duchy. If Germany does feel some type of way, they could install them as Kings of Denmark. But at the same time, why would they?

Don’t even have to go that far out; plenty of cadet branches within Denmark amongst various cousins, and there’s the various Greek princes with their Danish heritage, too.

Ahh, another believer in my “the US rebuilding the entire developed world in its liberal, pluralist image after WWII was a good thing” theory!

Definitely put me on Team Rules Based Postwar Order, yes haha

So trying to take stock:
1. US is roughly as well off as OTL, albeit some of that is in the form of enhanced and efficient provision of public services that doesn’t translate into GDP numbers well so the per capita figure is mildly lower. That said, its industrial might is still second-to-none without the mixed curse of being the global reserve currency.

Correct. Per capita is maybe 5% lower than OTL, so more around 68-69k. Disposable income is probably a bit higher despite that, in a country that’s much denser and efficient

2. China is probably about as well-off in standards of living but without the massive (largely wasteful) public investments padding its GDP per capita figures, they also look a lot lower. That said, it has genuine and serious problems with public safety, health, and sanitation and probably an even bigger gap between the developed cities and other locales than OTL; Thailand or Mexico instead of proto-Japan. On the flip-flip side, its government isn’t extirpating various disfavored minority groups by reducing the birth rate to near-zero.

This sounds about spot on

3. Latin America is better off from top to bottom, with Brazil and the Andean spine bordering on developed world, Mexico basically so, and Argentina completely so.

Yup, exactly.

4. Much of Europe is vastly more backwards both economically and socially.

Disagree here, for the reason others outlined below

5. Colonialism continues for much longer in much of the world and ends bloodily so Africa and much of South Asia is likely to worse off then OTL, excepting maybe India and Vietnam.

Unfortunately, correct. India and Vietnam are definitely ahead of OTL, though.

6. Russia is… probably better off? Hard to say; without the Soviets the place will have a much more uneven coat of modernity applied over the 20th century than IOTL, but everything which is achieved will be driven by genuine needs, thus useful and contributing standards of living instead of, literally in some cases, mining coal to burn in a pile next to the mine.

Russia is a bit of a black box still where I have a number of ideas but this sounds broadly correct

7. The Anglosphere outside the US is maybe 60% as well off as IOTL on the whole, ranging from Canada or Australia slightly behind to the CSA below half its OTL output.

Yes, with the UK ahead of OTL thanks to not having the debacles of 1945-95 economically nor the post-2010 austerity erection of OTL.

Economy?

I think that the ENTIRE continent not being destroyed in two world wars and then seeing its entire eastern part become communist, delaying its economic development by decades, is very positive for the European economy and demography.

I mean I feel Germany is doing leagues better without the mustache in charge, no ww2 explosions, scientists stay in Germany, prosperous communities not genocideded or thrown to the East, and the nazis don’t get to run the German Economy which I think they did very poorly and they keep influential German populations all over the East (and there colonies I guess but that’s not a positive in my book tbh)

I don't know, a much more limited and shorter WWI is an enormous plus for the old continent and the fact that Russia and UK happily commerce and not be involved it mean that the economic effect of the war will be also lessened and also the food problem...hell just in Italy we had 600.000 deaths that can be traced to malnutrition and various illness (including the spanish flu) just the fact that remain the possibility to get food from other (more accessible and economic) sources greatly ameliorate the situation and for Germany it mean no Turnip winter
They will be terrible? Sure but OTL were insted on the apocalyptic range so yes, it's a nice improvement respect OTL

And I agree with all these points. Now, Europe will have different winners and losers than OTL - places like Sweden don’t get to avoid two world wars their neighbors don’t with this CEW shakes out - so the benefits will spread differently, and lack of an EU has downstream impacts on development of some peripheral economies, but as a whole the continent comes out ahead just from no WW1 scale conflict and no worse sequel twenty years later

 

[Indiana Beach Crow]

As the largest of the European monarchs, why doesn't King Christian X simply eat anyone who dares to oppose him?

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

As the largest of the European monarchs, why doesn't King Christian X simply eat anyone who dares to oppose him?

huh?

As the largest of the European monarchs, why doesn't King Christian X simply eat anyone who dares to oppose him?

Well, that did make me laugh, that certainly went places....

Well,

 

[Slings_Arrows]

huh?



Well, that did make me laugh, that certainly went places....

Well,

It's a Futurama reference.