And also bad wording on my part what meant to ask if the drop in military spending as a percentage to gdp is due less money spent overall or is just the percentage droping because the gdp is growing
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Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
And of course i trust that you will spoil us with an appendix of the overall greek military with the mobilization plans with the numbers and were units will be assigned when the big event happens..and of course the big year of 1936 is here...i suppose one less dead prime minister will be beneficial to greece
Other than the greater greek GDP and arms procurement expenditure, it is worth mentioning the TTL trade balance. It has been mentioned already that Greece got an important grain producing region (east Thrace). The hard currency used in OTL to import wheat, can now be used to import machinery and arms.
Drachma is stronger in TTL and capital is more available. This might produce various butterflies. For example, there has been a new railroad that connects Kozani and Kalampaka. A railroad that spans south of Kozani could be very important for developing the local chrome deposits. Vourinos Mountain contains valuable chrome deposits. In OTL Greece was an important chromite ore producer (8th biggest in the world) and the 7th biggest exporter. In 1938, 42k tons of ore were produced and all of them exported. As far as I know, all the production was located in Domokos. In TTL there is a greek steel industry so part of the production won't be exported. There are greater motivations now to develop more chromite mines: the need to service the local industry while exporting as much as possible in order to get hard currency for arms imports and to pay off the new Kozani Kalampaka Line. Granted the deposits are just south of Kozani, but I guess even that would mean additional income.
A more important Greece, both strategically since it is the local Power to protect the Straits and economically (greater strategic raw resources output) might mean that Greece takes the position of OTL Turkey in the Allied strategic thinking, at least in 1939 and 1940. The means greater purchases of greek tobacco and dried fruit (raisins, figs) and privision of materiel. That means something like the OTL quantites delivered to Turkey. I have print screened a few pages from Hillman's "The ill-made alliance". All rights belong to the author and publishers.
At the same time, the author mentioned that the OTL turkish tobacco exports to USA, belongs now to Asiatic Greece. This can be translated into the OTL turkish purchases of american material namely the 18 Martin 139s and 50 Curtiss Hawk. In a similar spirit the OTL turkish order for 80 czech 150mm guns, can become an order for 80 105mm guns, if the Greeks don't want to add another caliber to their collection.
Drachma is stronger in TTL and capital is more available. This might produce various butterflies. For example, there has been a new railroad that connects Kozani and Kalampaka. A railroad that spans south of Kozani could be very important for developing the local chrome deposits. Vourinos Mountain contains valuable chrome deposits. In OTL Greece was an important chromite ore producer (8th biggest in the world) and the 7th biggest exporter. In 1938, 42k tons of ore were produced and all of them exported. As far as I know, all the production was located in Domokos. In TTL there is a greek steel industry so part of the production won't be exported. There are greater motivations now to develop more chromite mines: the need to service the local industry while exporting as much as possible in order to get hard currency for arms imports and to pay off the new Kozani Kalampaka Line. Granted the deposits are just south of Kozani, but I guess even that would mean additional income.
A more important Greece, both strategically since it is the local Power to protect the Straits and economically (greater strategic raw resources output) might mean that Greece takes the position of OTL Turkey in the Allied strategic thinking, at least in 1939 and 1940. The means greater purchases of greek tobacco and dried fruit (raisins, figs) and privision of materiel. That means something like the OTL quantites delivered to Turkey. I have print screened a few pages from Hillman's "The ill-made alliance". All rights belong to the author and publishers.
At the same time, the author mentioned that the OTL turkish tobacco exports to USA, belongs now to Asiatic Greece. This can be translated into the OTL turkish purchases of american material namely the 18 Martin 139s and 50 Curtiss Hawk. In a similar spirit the OTL turkish order for 80 czech 150mm guns, can become an order for 80 105mm guns, if the Greeks don't want to add another caliber to their collection.
With war looming over the horizon and the 1936 elections coming to Greece, that will be an important electoral campaign, especially if there is a consensus.
If rearmament and preparation for war dominates all other topics, then is there a chance the polarization of the 1920s between venizelists and royalists gradually fades through that consensus, with some government of national union being possible in 1940?
If rearmament and preparation for war dominates all other topics, then is there a chance the polarization of the 1920s between venizelists and royalists gradually fades through that consensus, with some government of national union being possible in 1940?
But of course the greater mineral,industrial and agricultural wealth greece has would make her an even more attractive to attack and sieze that wealth... Gough Gough for Germany cough cough
Also Eretria in Larisa since the 1880s. Not certain when Vourinos as well start being exploited.
Some would be locally used yes. But Greek steel production will be necessarily limited, somewhere ~100,000t a year by 1938 compared to 276,000t a year for Romania, 235,000t for Yugoslavia and 38,000t in 1940 for Turkey. (OTL Greece was at 15,000t having just entered the game) Of course as always finished products are worth more than raw materials.
Exports at the time the war ended. Post war there was quite a bit a change in the geographic distribution of Turkish tobacco production with quite a lot coming from regions not as prominent before 1922. Losing most of the trained manpower who where Greeks hardly hurt either...
Gradually to an extend... then you short of can see the very faded divides even in the present day so I wouldn't much hold my breath over the speed of overcoming the differences.
How on earth did I miss it? Pulawski survives! We may end up with better polish aircraft. Case White may cause more casualties to the Luftwaffe.
A few thoughts on the future of the Hellenic Air Force. In TTL, the HAF starts with more planes to begin with and a bigger industrial base (KEA). It doesn't matter that the current models are completely outdated. What matters is that there are bound to be more trained aircrew already and the greater availability of machines, would mean that the Greeks can train in tactics at squadron level. From the little I know so far, Greek pilots had many flight hours experience but they were woefully untrained in tactics. Therefore, I think that in TTL the trained manpower will be more numerous and of better quality.
Pulawski surviving is absolutely wonderful for Greece. It could mean a better PZL 24. Add in the production license and you can see a HAF fielding 90 of them by 1940 (I am using the OTL turkish-owned number of machines). The main constraint would be engines. By the way, what engine have you chosen? I think I smell a Gnome-Rhône.
Frankly, in my opinion the best solution for a greek medium bomber would have been the PZL 37. Greece has a lot of tobacco after all, while there is the precedent of PZL 24. If there can be an engine that can be license-produced as well and be used by both aircraft, that would be grand. Or at least, two derivatives of the same engine.
I think the Regia Aeronautica will bleed. If the Italians have three open fronts (Greece, Malta, Western Desert) I can see them getting in a downward spiral by early 1941.
I have a last thought to share. We know that Venizelos was a huge admirer of the work of Thucydides. In TTL he find himself PM in a Greece that could be attacked by Italy, Turkey and Bulgaria at the same time, with a neutral Yugoslavia. I do wonder if he would decide that perhaps "Long Walls" are needed, a National Redoubt. The Greeks operate already with that assumption in Greece-in-Asia with the Smyrna Fortified Zone, so the concept already exists. The Olympus-Pindus Line provides such an excellent redoubt with a fallback position in Thermopylae. Venizelos may feel that in the worst case, he can be besieged behind mountain ranges while he waits for the Naval Powers to win the war. Naturally, it would be political suicide to start building fortifications in the middle of the country. But quiet staff work can be prepared in time. Careful and detailed survey of the area for artillery ranges, trenches, obstacles. A few macadam roads can be opened to service the potential frontline. Then, as dark winds are rising, some slow and quiet work can start. If Italy and Turkey attack at the same time or close to the same time, I expect the Greek Army to fight along the borders for as long as possible, while engineers are building the mountain bastion of the OTL Olympus-Venetikos-Pindus Line.
Hey i know that is a bit to much to explain but can someone explain to me the structure of the greek army in ww2 i mean the division structure and regiments and the men that a division had and such? It would help me to understand how the greek army would be like when fully mobilised
It has been quite helpful in understanding the organisation of the greek army iotl and has helped me to better understand the difference of ttl greek army and otl
Also if i am not mistaken metaxas in otl has bought a number of mules from abroad in order to improve the greek army's logistics in the mountainous terrain were trucks were difficult to use... Ittl greece has enough mules and mountain ponies? Or will she import mules as iotl? A mean sure there is the railroad to ioanina and agioi saranta and the mountainous North Epirus is in greek hands,but will the line be complete when war erupts? That is a question that the general staff should consider...
Lets just say I'm wary of air accidents happening on schedule 10+ years post POD...
That applied to many in the interwar period. Size wise the HAF is rather closer to the projected numbers at its creation than OTL.
Possibly. After all the Mistral Major was quite widely licenced around Europe. Then Pulawski personally preferred inline engines and also Greece was a good trade balance with the United States and has been paying her war loans to the US hence licencing R1830 is an obvious alternative.
That's going a bit ahead of the times, although I note that the idea of pulling back to the Olympus if needed existed back in 1918. But in terms of planning for a general European war in 1935, under which scenario Greece would expect having to retreat back to the Olympus? France falling looks ASB, Italy knocking out Yygoslavia and then also invading Greece appears difficult as long as France is in the fight tying up a significant part of the Italian army. The only reasonable scenario is a joint Yugoslav-Bulgarian invasion but the Yugoslavs are supposed to be allies... although someone almost certainly has a plan of operations for the eventuality just in case, that's what general staffs are for,
Generally speaking nearly everyone in Europe at the time had standardised into "triadic" divisions, as the standard organization ie one infantry division of 3 infantry regiments with three infantry battalions each with 1 (or two in the case of the French) artillery regiments in support. There is a notable exception in the Italians who switched to a binary division of 2 infantry regiments. Proved a bad idea.
This one has so many errors it's not even funny. Niehorster as usual is quite a bit better
Then you have this https://ww2greece.wargaming.info/TOandEs.htm for infantry division, infantry regiment and artillery regiment.
Thank you, Greece isn't a country whose Army I've really researched much, I just remembered seeing that. Those sources are much better.
I would guess that a war were Italy attacks through Albania (they already have Valona), Bulgaria from the north and Turkey from the east. Nobody would expect France to fall, certainly. But France could be tied by Germany, or France could be unwilling to launch a campaign against mainland Italy. In that case, the war against Italy would be one of attrition to blockade it into submission while French and British gobble up the italian colonies.
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That could do it but as mentioned greece is already planning for an event like this and for what from what i understand the plan is to conduct a fighting retreat in Asia minor,slow the Bulgarians as much as possible while the army's mobilization is underway and strike at the Italian bases
Part 42
Sevastopol, January 1936
After nearly two decades out of service battleship Frunze, the former Poltava joined the Soviet Black Sea fleet. By now the ship had been converted with Italian help to a fast battleship with 9 320mm guns, converted from her old 12in guns and a top speed of 27 knots. When Parizhskaya Kommuna the former Sevastopol completed her modernization to the same design, the fleet should be able to maintain superiority the British Greek puppets. It was only the start, much more ambitious plans for the construction of up to twenty new battleships had been proposed and it had been written in Pravda that the Soviet Union would soon become again one of the world's great naval powers.
Athens, March 22nd 1936
The Greek supreme war council came to session presided by prime minister Venizelos. It's first order of business was replacing the chiefs of the army and the navy general staffs Alexandros Mazarakis-Ainian and Alexandros Hatzikyriakos who had reached mandatory retirement age. In their place Theodore Pangalos, the former chief of staff of the Army of Asia Minor during the Greek-Turkish war and Ioannis Demestichas would replace them. The next order of business was the recent failure of France and Britain to deliver urgently needed equipment in a timely fashion during the Abyssinian crisis even with Greece willing to pay in gold or dollars. This had been a shock particularly from Venizelos who had expected and declared as much in parliament that if a new crisis had come he would be able to anticipate it and import any missing material in a timely fashion. He had proven right over anticipating the crisis. What he had failed to anticipate was France being unable to deliver.
The only viable solution was on one hand diversifying arms sources and on the other relying on domestic production. Greece's Hephaestus works were already producing locally light arms and munitions while Greece also had some limited domestic production of steel, thus in theory could expand to producing artillery and mortars domestically, after all if Romania and Yugoslavia could do as much there was no reason Greece shouldn't emulate them. Everything that could be built domestically should be built locally and existing production capabilities expanded. Greece at the moment had a large unused surplus in her balance of payments with Germany which was starting to become a problem. It could not be used to buy arms, Germany was not willing to export weapons after all, but it could be used for buying machine tools and industrial equipment of which Germany had a great excess and none in Berlin had put export restrictions so far, although this was likely only a matter of time to happen. At the same time training would need to be much expanded as well. From the coming school year both the number of technicians trained in the Sivitanideios technical school and the number of engineering students entering the National Technical University of Athens and the Technical school in the Ionian University in Smyrna would need to be much increased while scholarships would be provided to train a number of engineers and technicians outside Greece if arrangements could be made. The military purchasing commissions in Europe were ordered to seek licences for any arms they could buy in addition to the arms themselves.
London, March 25th 1936
A final naval arms limitation treaty came to being this time signed solely by Britain, France and the United States as neither Japan nor Italy were willing to sign although both countries diplomats tried to make excuses and delay things overall. Under the new treaty all numeric limitations to ships built were removed. Battleship size would be retained at 35,000t and 16in guns, with both Italy and France building already such ships and Japan expected to follow the United States outright refused the reductions proposed by Britain, actually an escalator clause allowing expanding tonnage to 45,000t if Japan and Italy did not sign the treaty was added. Britain at least managed to secure limiting aircraft carriers to 23,000t, cruisers to 8,000t and 6.1in guns and submarines to 2,000t and 5.1in guns. Whether the limitations made any sense given the growing tension in international relations was a different matter.
France, March 1936
The prototype of the Loire-Nieuport 161 fighter flew for the first time. It would soon be put into full testing. After all the Armee de'l Air was in urgent need for a modern fighter and the recent crash of the competing Morane Saulnier MS-405 prototype which had first flown the previous August, ahead of the Loire-Nieuport aircraft which had been lacking an engine didn't help things.
France, April-May 1936
The French Popular Front, easily won French elections securing 57% of the vote in the aftermath of the German army reoccupying the Rhineland the previous March. Socialist Leon Blum would form the new government. The new government would have its work cut out for it. Within days a general strike had been called by the labour unions against the new government, that they were supposed to be supporting. Reforms were much needed. The German threat was increasing by the day. Reform was needed in the empire. And the senate was not controlled by the front...
Ethiopia, May 1936
Addis Ababa fell to the advancing Italian army. Emperor Haile Selassie was able to flee to Djibuti ahead of the Italians, from there he would flee to Europe appearing before the general assembly of the League of Nations in Geneva and setting up a court in exile in Britain. Back in Ethiopia resistance continued under the leadership of the emperor's cousin Imre Haile Selassie but with the emperor gone and the capital fallen the Italians could declare victory, even though nearly half the country was still free and it would take several more years to "pacify" it. For Mussolini it was a great victory bringing his popularity within Italy at its peak but had come at a steep cost. Itallian casualties were nearly 66,000 men while war costs had reached a staggering 33.5 million, by comparison the two Littorio class battleships under construction, the costliest ever built in Italy, were not going to exceed 800 million lire each.
Berlin, June 5th, 1936
General Walther Wever personally presented the Bomber A RLM requirement for a modern heavy border to German industry. Testing for the two candidates of the earlier "Ural bomber" was meanwhile continuing although the prototypes of both contesting designs were still several months of their first flights.
Madrid, June 26th, 1936
Spain had been in increasing turmoil since the victory of the Popular Front earlier in the year with both the Let and the Right pressing for any advantage they could get and often clashing in the streets and members of the PSOE openly calling for Spain becoming socialist and allying with the Soviet Union. Now the assassination by Falangists of an Assault Guard officer would trigger yet further escalation. Since the new government had gained power general Francisco Franco had been ordered to remain in his house in Madrid in anticipation of trial for his actions in the Asturias revolt two years earlier. Now a group of socialist aligned policemen, invaded the house carried him away and killed him. The "butcher of Asturias" was no more. Τhe reaction of the army to the assassination of one of their own remained to be seen...
After nearly two decades out of service battleship Frunze, the former Poltava joined the Soviet Black Sea fleet. By now the ship had been converted with Italian help to a fast battleship with 9 320mm guns, converted from her old 12in guns and a top speed of 27 knots. When Parizhskaya Kommuna the former Sevastopol completed her modernization to the same design, the fleet should be able to maintain superiority the British Greek puppets. It was only the start, much more ambitious plans for the construction of up to twenty new battleships had been proposed and it had been written in Pravda that the Soviet Union would soon become again one of the world's great naval powers.
Athens, March 22nd 1936
The Greek supreme war council came to session presided by prime minister Venizelos. It's first order of business was replacing the chiefs of the army and the navy general staffs Alexandros Mazarakis-Ainian and Alexandros Hatzikyriakos who had reached mandatory retirement age. In their place Theodore Pangalos, the former chief of staff of the Army of Asia Minor during the Greek-Turkish war and Ioannis Demestichas would replace them. The next order of business was the recent failure of France and Britain to deliver urgently needed equipment in a timely fashion during the Abyssinian crisis even with Greece willing to pay in gold or dollars. This had been a shock particularly from Venizelos who had expected and declared as much in parliament that if a new crisis had come he would be able to anticipate it and import any missing material in a timely fashion. He had proven right over anticipating the crisis. What he had failed to anticipate was France being unable to deliver.
The only viable solution was on one hand diversifying arms sources and on the other relying on domestic production. Greece's Hephaestus works were already producing locally light arms and munitions while Greece also had some limited domestic production of steel, thus in theory could expand to producing artillery and mortars domestically, after all if Romania and Yugoslavia could do as much there was no reason Greece shouldn't emulate them. Everything that could be built domestically should be built locally and existing production capabilities expanded. Greece at the moment had a large unused surplus in her balance of payments with Germany which was starting to become a problem. It could not be used to buy arms, Germany was not willing to export weapons after all, but it could be used for buying machine tools and industrial equipment of which Germany had a great excess and none in Berlin had put export restrictions so far, although this was likely only a matter of time to happen. At the same time training would need to be much expanded as well. From the coming school year both the number of technicians trained in the Sivitanideios technical school and the number of engineering students entering the National Technical University of Athens and the Technical school in the Ionian University in Smyrna would need to be much increased while scholarships would be provided to train a number of engineers and technicians outside Greece if arrangements could be made. The military purchasing commissions in Europe were ordered to seek licences for any arms they could buy in addition to the arms themselves.
London, March 25th 1936
A final naval arms limitation treaty came to being this time signed solely by Britain, France and the United States as neither Japan nor Italy were willing to sign although both countries diplomats tried to make excuses and delay things overall. Under the new treaty all numeric limitations to ships built were removed. Battleship size would be retained at 35,000t and 16in guns, with both Italy and France building already such ships and Japan expected to follow the United States outright refused the reductions proposed by Britain, actually an escalator clause allowing expanding tonnage to 45,000t if Japan and Italy did not sign the treaty was added. Britain at least managed to secure limiting aircraft carriers to 23,000t, cruisers to 8,000t and 6.1in guns and submarines to 2,000t and 5.1in guns. Whether the limitations made any sense given the growing tension in international relations was a different matter.
France, March 1936
The prototype of the Loire-Nieuport 161 fighter flew for the first time. It would soon be put into full testing. After all the Armee de'l Air was in urgent need for a modern fighter and the recent crash of the competing Morane Saulnier MS-405 prototype which had first flown the previous August, ahead of the Loire-Nieuport aircraft which had been lacking an engine didn't help things.
France, April-May 1936
The French Popular Front, easily won French elections securing 57% of the vote in the aftermath of the German army reoccupying the Rhineland the previous March. Socialist Leon Blum would form the new government. The new government would have its work cut out for it. Within days a general strike had been called by the labour unions against the new government, that they were supposed to be supporting. Reforms were much needed. The German threat was increasing by the day. Reform was needed in the empire. And the senate was not controlled by the front...
Ethiopia, May 1936
Addis Ababa fell to the advancing Italian army. Emperor Haile Selassie was able to flee to Djibuti ahead of the Italians, from there he would flee to Europe appearing before the general assembly of the League of Nations in Geneva and setting up a court in exile in Britain. Back in Ethiopia resistance continued under the leadership of the emperor's cousin Imre Haile Selassie but with the emperor gone and the capital fallen the Italians could declare victory, even though nearly half the country was still free and it would take several more years to "pacify" it. For Mussolini it was a great victory bringing his popularity within Italy at its peak but had come at a steep cost. Itallian casualties were nearly 66,000 men while war costs had reached a staggering 33.5 million, by comparison the two Littorio class battleships under construction, the costliest ever built in Italy, were not going to exceed 800 million lire each.
Berlin, June 5th, 1936
General Walther Wever personally presented the Bomber A RLM requirement for a modern heavy border to German industry. Testing for the two candidates of the earlier "Ural bomber" was meanwhile continuing although the prototypes of both contesting designs were still several months of their first flights.
Madrid, June 26th, 1936
Spain had been in increasing turmoil since the victory of the Popular Front earlier in the year with both the Let and the Right pressing for any advantage they could get and often clashing in the streets and members of the PSOE openly calling for Spain becoming socialist and allying with the Soviet Union. Now the assassination by Falangists of an Assault Guard officer would trigger yet further escalation. Since the new government had gained power general Francisco Franco had been ordered to remain in his house in Madrid in anticipation of trial for his actions in the Asturias revolt two years earlier. Now a group of socialist aligned policemen, invaded the house carried him away and killed him. The "butcher of Asturias" was no more. Τhe reaction of the army to the assassination of one of their own remained to be seen...
Sanjurjo dead, Franco dead... The last one is potential game changer.
Now we are down to Mola or Cabanellas as potential leaders in the end instead of Franco.
I don't know too much on Mola, but if he dies as OTL and Cabanellas comes over the top, that would be better I guess; a former Radical Republican delegate and freemason according to his wiki, he looked more or less like he could have leaned towards the idea of a National Republican dictatorship as proposed by Miguel Maura.
Now we are down to Mola or Cabanellas as potential leaders in the end instead of Franco.
I don't know too much on Mola, but if he dies as OTL and Cabanellas comes over the top, that would be better I guess; a former Radical Republican delegate and freemason according to his wiki, he looked more or less like he could have leaned towards the idea of a National Republican dictatorship as proposed by Miguel Maura.
Hmm locally made mortars and artillery this can be only good although i wonder if greece can manufacture the EPK machine gun or something like that in the near future
I have no idea about metallurgy and engineering to ascertain which artillery pieces are easier to manufacture. But mortars seem to be easy to manufacture. The yugoslav arsenal at Kragujevac was building 81mm mortars under license.
As I see it, the problem would be for Krupp or another german steel giant to license artillery tube-quality steel. Could Skoda license its steel , whiles Greece gets the industrial equipment from Germany? I don't see why not.
What about Sub-Engineer Schools? For decades those schools were the source of a major part of the greek industrial workforce.
Also AFAIK, private technical schools such as Euclid in Thessaloniki produced a lot of good mechanics and machinists.
So.... thus far there are 12,000 more italian casualties. Not bad, not bad at all! What was the OTL cost of the war until May 1936 ?