AHC: UK National Soccer Team

[kernals12]

Quite bizarrely, Britain has 4 seperate soccer teams, one for England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Considering how these "nations" have been ceremonial until very recently with the advent of devolved parliaments, this just seems odd and harmful to the quality of each of the national teams.

Even more bizarrely, they have 4 seperate soccer leagues. No other country that I no of has multiple top level leagues within its borders (not counting low ranking regional leagues). In fact, Major League Soccer does the opposite, covering both the US and Canada, probably because they need the economies of scale.

So how can we have a single UK National Team and a single UK Premier League?

 

[Riain]

Quite bizarrely, Britain has 4 seperate soccer teams, one for England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Considering how these "nations" have been ceremonial until very recently with the advent of devolved parliaments, this just seems odd and harmful to the quality of each of the national teams.

Even more bizarrely, they have 4 seperate soccer leagues. No other country that I no of has multiple top level leagues within its borders (not counting low ranking regional leagues). In fact, Major League Soccer does the opposite, covering both the US and Canada, probably because they need the economies of scale.

So how can we have a single UK National Team and a single UK Premier League?

Australia has the AFL in the 4 football states and NRL in the 2 rugby league states. Sure, there is an NRL team in Melbourne and 2 AFL teams in Sydney and SE Queensland, but the states really are distinct

 

[Enigmajones]

Not sure about an all UK League, but you would've to have the Scottish and English leagues under one system, but from what I know Scotland and England have always had separate teams.

 

[Politibrit]

Wales has its own regional league, but the best teams play in the English league. As I recall, about ten years ago, Celtic and Rangers were offered the chance to play in England too, but they rejected it when it became clear that they would join the Championship instead of the Premier League to start off with. Find a way to change that, and you'd have three different nations represented in one system, and maybe in time that could open the door to invites to some of the better teams in the Scotland, Wales and Northern Irish league to join at the lower levels. There wouldn't be any formal system of promotion, but their would be a UK wide league, in a sense.

 

[Neoteros]

An unified UK national team and league would've been a good thing earlier on, since Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland) would've had access to a wider pool of... everything, really, but now that said championships have fallen far behind it's too late, I think.

 

[Spens1]

Australia has the AFL in the 4 football states and NRL in the 2 rugby league states. Sure, there is an NRL team in Melbourne and 2 AFL teams in Sydney and SE Queensland, but the states really are distinct

Victoria, WA and Victoria, where did the 4th state come from? Tasmania doesn't count since the idiots are intent on not putting a team (and instead wasting time having a team on the coast and western sydney instead).

Agree though on the rest, Australia is a unique situation where with both major sports, one half of the country is hardcore about one and couldn't care less about the other.

 

[Devvy]

This actually requires a pre-1900 PoD. And historically speaking the four Home Nations have been a unified part of the United Kingdom, all four are historically separate. The (English) FA is the oldest FA in the world if I remember correctly, and initially based on a merger between a London "FA" and the Sheffield "FA" forming the English FA. Scottish FA popped up as an agreement between Scottish clubs; even in the 1800s, there was recognition that Scotland has it's own identity and way of doing things, and likewise for Ireland (later reduced to Northern Ireland) - these countries had not been unified with England for that long in the grand scheme of things.

You then had the Home Nations form IFAB (which continues to maintain the official rule book) as the body for organising internationals, including England vs Scotland despite both being within the UK. The later creation of FIFA, and "grandfathering rights" allowing the Home Nations to join was merely a recognition of what was already happening.

To be honest, I think the separate home nation teams are a result of the nature of the UK as a "country of countries", a situation which seems to be quite rare in the world as most other comparable examples have broken up or had local identities erased. I don't really see how it's possible to avoid this situation without making the UK more unified to try and erase national differences. The UK Government has normally avoided interfering in private affairs, which is how the national FAs started out.

FYI; I don't think Celtic and Rangers were ever offered (or even partook in actual discussions) over joining the English league structure. Celtic and Rangers have normally looked with a jealous eye at the money on offer in the Premier League. However, there is divided opinion (to be diplomatic) as to whether they are on a PL level currently, or whether the Championship would be an appropriate level to enter in to. Given time and the PL money, they'd probably establish themselves as PL teams, but currently personally I think they'd struggle. They can compete with PL teams in the Champions League on an off basis, but to use an over-used phrase, I think they'd seriously struggle to do it every "cold Tuesday night at Stoke".

 

[TruthfulPanda]

FYI; I don't think Celtic and Rangers were ever offered (or even partook in actual discussions) over joining the English league structure. Celtic and Rangers have normally looked with a jealous eye at the money on offer in the Premier League. However, there is divided opinion (to be diplomatic) as to whether they are on a PL level currently, or whether the Championship would be an appropriate level to enter in to. Given time and the PL money, they'd probably establish themselves as PL teams, but currently personally I think they'd struggle.

Part of the Ugly Sisters' fanbase and management wish for them to play in the English system.
But the English system does not want them. They'd be an embarassment - one bunch of fans extolling murderers of the IRA and various Palestinian outfits, while the other sings "Knee deep in Fenian blood!" - Sky TV, which owns the EPL, will really, really love that ...
The move to the English system is simply not happening for many, many different reasons.
And Rangers 2013 will go bust before that happens anyway

 

[Dorknought]

Agree though on the rest, Australia is a unique situation where with both major sports, one half of the country is hardcore about one and couldn't care less about the other.

Its the Barassi Line:

 

[Spens1]

Its the Barassi Line:

Barassi is being a bit generous. Anyway NT, and Tasmania don't have no team.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Part of the Ugly Sisters' fanbase and management wish for them to play in the English system.
But the English system does not want them. They'd be an embarassment - one bunch of fans extolling murderers of the IRA and various Palestinian outfits, while the other sings "Knee deep in Fenian blood!" - Sky TV, which owns the EPL, will really, really love that ...
The move to the English system is simply not happening for many, many different reasons.
And Rangers 2013 will go bust before that happens anyway

As said not going to happen. Rangers and Celtic have a fan base but its loud rather than large and are at best mediocre at the moment, like Sunderland, Newcastle and West Ham and none of the other clubs in the league would make way for them. If they started in the Championship - frankly tough time to get out. and they know it.

The big Welsh teams are in the English league system

More likely to get an NI team joining a lower division and working up but this aint the NFL.

As to national teams why being a national team is where the local FAs get their money and jollies.

 

[sparky42]

As said not going to happen. Rangers and Celtic have a fan base but its loud rather than large and are at best mediocre at the moment, like Sunderland, Newcastle and West Ham and none of the other clubs in the league would make way for them. If they started in the Championship - frankly tough time to get out. and they know it.

The big Welsh teams are in the English league system

More likely to get an NI team joining a lower division and working up but this aint the NFL.

As to national teams why being a national team is where the local FAs get their money and jollies.

I can't see how any of the NI teams could getting up into the higher leagues of the FA. Nor would I see much interest from GB to matches in the North, then of course there's Derry not even being in the IFA.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

The attendance figures of the biggest Ulster sides place them at Division Four* level at best** - but Conference National is much more likely.

* - if it is the fourth level call it such - and not "League Two" FFS!
** - and not likely without financial doping

 

[BenC]

I'd guess a single league is probably a much easier ask than a single national team, there are very few team sports outside of the Olympics where they don't compete separately, it's not unique to football.

Easy enough to just get Wales to not fear enough for its international position to decide to form a separate domestic league.

Scotland is probably a tougher ask because of the stronger identity and the distances involved, especially in the early days, but I don't think it's impossible.
The leagues were all set up by a few individuals anyway, someone with a more favourable opinion might opt for a British league. Already had Scottish teams competing in the early FA Cup incarnations.
People complain about the distance of away days to Newcastle from London, imagine if they had to travel to Inverness.

 

[kernals12]

I'd guess a single league is probably a much easier ask than a single national team, there are very few team sports outside of the Olympics where they don't compete separately, it's not unique to football.

Easy enough to just get Wales to not fear enough for its international position to decide to form a separate domestic league.

Scotland is probably a tougher ask because of the stronger identity and the distances involved, especially in the early days, but I don't think it's impossible.
The leagues were all set up by a few individuals anyway, someone with a more favourable opinion might opt for a British league. Already had Scottish teams competing in the early FA Cup incarnations.
People complain about the distance of away days to Newcastle from London, imagine if they had to travel to Inverness.

American, Canadian, and Brazilian sports leagues are able to deal with much greater distances.

 

[sparky42]

The other point about having NI in the league is the issue of the Troubles? Would teams travel or would the NI teams have to play in GB? There were a couple of times in Rugby that Scotland and Wales didn’t travel in the 70s to Dublin for example.

 

[kernals12]

It seems to me that the creation of the Premier League in 1994 would've been a good time to bring in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[kernals12]

The other point about having NI in the league is the issue of the Troubles? Would teams travel or would the NI teams have to play in GB? There were a couple of times in Rugby that Scotland and Wales didn’t travel in the 70s to Dublin for example.

probably not. I imagine you'd have one massacre of an entire team and that'd be it.

 

[Analytical Engine]

There are a whole load of regional tournaments and leagues. Why not just add another national league on top - a set number of the best teams from each region get to play in the national league, not unlike the UEFA Champion's League.

 

[kernals12]

There are a whole load of regional tournaments and leagues. Why not just add another national league on top - a set number of the best teams from each region get to play in the national league, not unlike the UEFA Champion's League.

Yes, a "Premier" league, if you will.