American identity/nationalism with an independent CSA

When a nation is divided into two through whatever circumstances, creating two opposing and hostile nations that at the same time share a common cultural and national heritage, not only does it create geopolitical tensions. At the same time, it comes to fundamentally affect how such nations view their national identities, since, in essence, what is happening here is that two hostile countries are each claiming to be the more legitimate representative of their nation and culture. It happened with West and East Germany, with each side trying to argue that they were the more legitmately "German" of the two; West Germans would present their capitalist system and integration with the world as a better representation of the German people, while East Germany considered their Marxist-Leninist system to be more consistent with German identity. It happens today with North and South Korea, as both sides consider the other government to be corruptions of what it means to be Korean.

And a similar thing could've happened with American identity as well, if it had been split by north and south between the United States and the Confederate States. So, let's look at this aspect of a CSA victory world: we've got two American nations, sharing a fundamentally similar cultural and linguistic heritage, but who are hostile due to a war which was caused by an acrimonious division in political beliefs. They both claim to revere the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, democracy, and so on. But now they have split into two very distinct, opposed systems, and each one is trying to prove itself to be the more legitimate "America."

So, how could the two countries define themselves in this regard? To a Yankee and a Confederate (either government or everyday person), what would they claim it means to be "American," and how would they go about contrasting themselves with the other country in order to make themselves out to be the better representation? How would the two countries interpret their shared political and cultural heritage in this context of contrast between two systems? What would nationalist propaganda look like in both countries?
 
I've wondered if the Northern United States would put a greater focus on unity in various respects and take on a somewhat eastern approach by viewing the needs of the community as outweighing the needs of the individual. In contrast the southern Confederate States would take an opposite approach and support the ideals of individuality and the desires of an individual do not need to be hindered by the desires of the community. This may lead to more competition in the Confederacy between businesses which could aid its economy and lead to various different laws between states and counties on how to handle the same political situation.
 
I've wondered if the Northern United States would put a greater focus on unity in various respects and take on a somewhat eastern approach by viewing the needs of the community as outweighing the needs of the individual. In contrast the southern Confederate States would take an opposite approach and support the ideals of individuality and the desires of an individual do not need to be hindered by the desires of the community. This may lead to more competition in the Confederacy between businesses which could aid its economy and lead to various different laws between states and counties on how to handle the same political situation.

I often imagine the Northern United States without the south being run by labor unions
 
One interesting thing that I remember being touched on in TL-191 was how both the USA and CSA were split over which Founding Fathers they revered more. Yankees began to put a special emphasis on northern Founding Fathers like John Adams, while downplaying southerners like Thomas Jefferson. The South did largely vice-versa. Both sides, however, still claimed to respect George Washington.

Is something like this likely to happen? What would be the effects on the two countries' identity?
 
I often imagine the Northern United States without the south being run by labor unions

Hard to see, given just how much power industrialists had in the corridors of power. But industry and urbanism would very likely play a larger role in the Union self image. That would also give working class organisations greater power, given the role they often played in city governments.

You might also end up with a stronger consciously melting-pot identity in the union. The creation myth of the South, after all, is strongly associated with the Anglo-Saxon tradition of liberty and the Scots-Irish fighting spirit. A separate Union identity might well focus on "e pluribus unum", with the Irish and German elements dominant.

Hell, their school books could end up blaming the South for the Indian Removal and deplore the cruelty visited on the civilised tribes by the Southron racist and Democrat Jackson. Of course, their own Indians are totally different and regrettably unassimilable.
 
The USA evolves into a European-style social democracy with politics polarized between socialists and capitalists, the CSA becomes after a certain point relevant only as the greatest single target for American expansion. The USA does not need to focus anywhere near as much on the CSA as would be the case in reverse.
 
The USA evolves into a European-style social democracy with politics polarized between socialists and capitalists, the CSA becomes after a certain point relevant only as the greatest single target for American expansion. The USA does not need to focus anywhere near as much on the CSA as would be the case in reverse.

Basically, much like OTL national splits, with the United States as West Germany/South Korea and the Confederacy as East Germany/DPRK?
 
Basically, much like OTL national splits, with the United States as West Germany/South Korea and the Confederacy as East Germany/DPRK?

More like USA as India and CSA as Pakistan, complete with the USA being much wealthier and more democratic and the CSA being an unstable military dictatorship.
 
Something I've often wondered, but never seen addressed in these threads: what role will Catholicism and the Catholic Church have in the USA in a CSA wins scenario? In the 19th century there was a lot of anti-Catholicism on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line; but minus the overwhelmingly Protestant Southern states, Catholics will make up a much bigger percentage of the population of the USA. Catholics may even end up as the majority. That could affect politics and culture in all kinds of interesting ways.
 
More like USA as India and CSA as Pakistan, complete with the USA being much wealthier and more democratic and the CSA being an unstable military dictatorship.

Never seen this analogy before :D.

I think all of the above is plausible, however the CSA will have to tread a fine line between individuality and keeping around a slave/caste/apartheid* system.
 
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Never seen this analogy before :D.

I think all of the above is plausible, however the CSA will have to tread a fine line between individuality and keeping around a slave/caste/apartheid* system.

At least a part of it would also reflect that like Pakistan to modern India, a late-stage CSA will be the USA's creepy stalker frenemy, while most people in the USA just don't give a fuck about the CSA. Unless the CSA decides to start another war in which case it will be annihilated.
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
Something I've often wondered, but never seen addressed in these threads: what role will Catholicism and the Catholic Church have in the USA in a CSA wins scenario? In the 19th century there was a lot of anti-Catholicism on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line; but minus the overwhelmingly Protestant Southern states, Catholics will make up a much bigger percentage of the population of the USA. Catholics may even end up as the majority. That could affect politics and culture in all kinds of interesting ways.

Well nativism was pretty strong in the mid-Atlantic and the Midwest, so that would be a bit of an drawback, but my guess, with New York and California being in the US. So that would outweigh it. I don't think there would be quite a majority, there will probably be some German protestants in the mix.
The CSA probably will have an anti-Catholic stance. I can't tell you much more.
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
I wouldn't say run by labor unions but certainly unions would have much more power in a United States without the South.

I would totally agree with this.
USA would probably have a strong Socialist movement. I've always thought that if TL-191 USA lost WWI, it would go communist.
 
I'd argue, especially back then their really was no single National Culture or Identity to be split in the first place.
 
People always picture the post-war CSA as having a strong government and becoming a semi or outright dictatorship sometime down the line. But I look at all the talk on states right and yadda yadda and see a possible opposite fate, that of the central government basically devolving into a progressively looser confederation and the CSA eventually going the way of the United Provinces of Central America...
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
People always picture the post-war CSA as having a strong government and becoming a semi or outright dictatorship sometime down the line. But I look at all the talk on states right and yadda yadda and see a possible opposite fate, that of the central government basically devolving into a progressively looser confederation and the CSA eventually going the way of the United Provinces of Central America...

You see Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida, South Carolina and probably North Carolina, too had no way in hell to survive on their own. So, I doubt it.
 
You see Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida, South Carolina and probably North Carolina, too had no way in hell to survive on their own. So, I doubt it.

Care to elaborate? If Haiti and El Salvador could survive as independent small states, why not SC or MS?
 
You see Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida, South Carolina and probably North Carolina, too had no way in hell to survive on their own. So, I doubt it.

Just to point out, North Carolina was alot different from the other CSA states at the time, you see since North Carolina sounds prevented the establishment of alot of Atlantic port cities (with the exception of Wilmington) so the state was made up of mostly small farmers.

Sources: A book I have about Sherman's march to the sea and the last months of the war, printed in 1865
2. Personal Experience
 
Just to point out, North Carolina was alot different from the other CSA states at the time, you see since North Carolina sounds prevented the establishment of alot of Atlantic port cities (with the exception of Wilmington) so the state was made up of mostly small farmers.

Also New Berne.
 
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