An independent Indian republic?

[Eckener]

I was wondering if it would have been possible to have had the formation of a soverign indian nation form in North America legally independent from the USA.

I was thinking of a PoD in the 1830s and 40s, during the time of the Indian Removal to Oklahoma. This is how I picture it in overview:

-The '5 Tribes' are removed to Oklahoma
-Realizing they face growing pressure from the Americans, they come together to form the American Indian Republic (or something like this...). The '5 Tribes' are each like states, under one stronger central government.
-Before the civil war, the AIR decides to abolish slavery gradually. Passing a law that all persons currently slaves and THEIR children will remain as slaves, but all those born to those children will be born free, and become a citizen of the AIR.
-Because slavery is on it's way out in the AIR, the republic officially remains neutral during the civil war, but has more northern smpathy than in OTL
-South looses the war. Because the AIR didn't get involved and was unnofficially pro north (at least compared to OTL) the US gov't doesn't shrink the tribal land holdings.
-Sign a treaty recognizing the AIR as a soverign nation, and establish it as a protectorate state of the US.

 

[Tom Veil]

I think you'd actually need a subtle POD a few decades earlier, in which public opinion gradually shifts from fearing and belittling American Indians towards respecting them as equals to American Whites. That's possible, but it would take decades to pull off. Then you could have this all snowball into a noticable change in the 1830s or so.

 

[othyrsyde]

There's a TL, called "Crown and the Tomahawk", that explored a Native American state, created in the aftermath of a British victory in the War of 1812, under Tecumseh. It hasn't been updated in a while though, as far as I last saw. Well I know it's not the tribes you were going toward, but I suggest you check that scenario out.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Easiest PoD for an Indian republic would be in Mexico, because technically it is in North America after all. In 1848 simply have the Maya rebels of the Yucatan take Merida instead of leaving the siege to tend to their harvests. Then all of Yucatan (OTL Yucatan, Campeche, and Quintana Roo) is now an independent Mayan republic free from both Mexico and the USA obviously.

 

[Kenichiro Harada]

This has been discussed before,but I've not heard of any real reason why it could not happen. The "Native American Nation" or something like that,I've read that if anything..it would have to be far out west. Perhaps a buffer nation between the USA and Mexico.

 

[Xenos]

How about a decisive British victory in the War of 1812? The British might create several native American buffer-states to keep the US in check after they withdraw the bulk of their forces.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

How about a decisive British victory in the War of 1812? The British might create several native American buffer-states to keep the US in check after they withdraw the bulk of their forces.

I don't think that would actually work.

Getting an Indian Protectorate (probably most of Indiana and Illinois) is likely possible - Crown and Tomahawk gives them all of Michigan and Wisconsin, too, which I find ... unlikely. However, unless they are functionally part of the British Empire, the US will just walk in and take them over in a decade or so. Even if they ARE part of the British Empire, I'd bet the US would TRY.

End result is likely either they go back to the US (and are probably kicked out) or they are (essentially) absorbed into Canada.

There just weren't ENOUGH natives to hold off US encroachment. Their low intensity agriculture and lack of domestic animals really hurt them that way.

OTL, at the time of the War of 1812, there were as many white Americans in Indiana and Illinois (maybe and Michigan as well) as there were natives. I think 1812 is too late.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I really think that the best bet is actually the Iroquois. If they can get a modern agricultural package, and get their numbers growing as fast as the whites around them (or faster) they could hold onto part of the shore of Lake Ontario (possibly pushed across into what's now Ontario, possibly staying on the south shore in OTL New York).

One of the big limitations of the nations in the northern US was that they were not fully agricultural. They may have gotten almost all of their calories from farming - but they clothing was hunted. It takes ~2 deer/person to make clothes for a year, and that limits your population a lot.

An earlier PoD where cotton successfully moves north with corn or where the Vinland settlements die out but leave some domestic animals may be required.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If you insist on a late PoD, having a plains indian buffer state in a balkanized North America among the USA, CSA, Texas, California, (Mexico?), (BC?) and Canada, would likely be the only way to get an independent native state north of OTL's Mexico.

(as others have pointed out, better possibilities exist further south)

 

[othyrsyde]

Easiest PoD for an Indian republic would be in Mexico, because technically it is in North America after all. In 1848 simply have the Maya rebels of the Yucatan take Merida instead of leaving the siege to tend to their harvests. Then all of Yucatan (OTL Yucatan, Campeche, and Quintana Roo) is now an independent Mayan republic free from both Mexico and the USA obviously.

Yeah the Caste War would have been a great time to have a Native state emerge, with enough territory, society, etc. to grow into something of a modern state, or maybe a very autonomous region of Mexico (or some other country).

If you want to include South America, Tupac Amaru II or Katari winning in their uprisings in 1780s could create a viable state.

 

[The Kiat]

I saw something on Wiki once (don't know how true it is) about the Indians of the Dakodas declaring their own state in 2007.
I doubt the Indians could have an independent republic. They might be able to have a republic within the United States, i.e. a state (since all states are autonomous to a degree). The Five Civilized Tribes down south or the Iriqoius Confederacy.

 

[othyrsyde]

I saw something on Wiki once (don't know how true it is) about the Indians of the Dakodas declaring their own state in 2007.
I doubt the Indians could have an independent republic. They might be able to have a republic within the United States, i.e. a state (since all states are autonomous to a degree). The Five Civilized Tribes down south or the Iriqoius Confederacy.

Well by your description, we already have that per say, in the United States. Native American Reservations are considered sovereign nations in theory; "dependent nations" is the technical term I've heard thrown around. This is why reservations can have gambling in states that prohibit such ventures, because they don't have to answer to state law, but to federal.

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

I was wondering if it would have been possible to have had the formation of a soverign indian nation form in North America legally independent from the USA.

I was thinking of a PoD in the 1830s and 40s, during the time of the Indian Removal to Oklahoma. This is how I picture it in overview:

-The '5 Tribes' are removed to Oklahoma
-Realizing they face growing pressure from the Americans, they come together to form the American Indian Republic (or something like this...). The '5 Tribes' are each like states, under one stronger central government.
-Before the civil war, the AIR decides to abolish slavery gradually. Passing a law that all persons currently slaves and THEIR children will remain as slaves, but all those born to those children will be born free, and become a citizen of the AIR.
-Because slavery is on it's way out in the AIR, the republic officially remains neutral during the civil war, but has more northern smpathy than in OTL
-South looses the war. Because the AIR didn't get involved and was unnofficially pro north (at least compared to OTL) the US gov't doesn't shrink the tribal land holdings.
-Sign a treaty recognizing the AIR as a soverign nation, and establish it as a protectorate state of the US.

There's some parts of this that could work. IOTL the slaves among the Five Tribes were often only slaves in name only. It was more of a tribute relationship among the Creek and Seminole.

Perhaps they'd make the tribute relationship a way for slaves to buy their freedom and also end the enslavement of any further children born to slaves. Perhaps also the others in the Five Tribes recognize (even moreso that IOTL) the harm that the slaveowning elites do to traditional ways and the small fraction of slaveowning Indians split off.

This still might not lead to an Indian republic, but rather to an Indian Territory given more self rule and later becoming a de facto Indian state admitted to the union.

 

[iori]

I saw something on Wiki once (don't know how true it is) about the Indians of the Dakotas declaring their own state in 2007.
I doubt the Indians could have an independent republic. They might be able to have a republic within the United States, i.e. a state (since all states are autonomous to a degree). The Five Civilized Tribes down south or the Iroquois Confederacy.

It was essentially unilaterally declared by a small group, by any standard the declaration is illegitimate since most of the Tribal leaders in the affected area were never asked about it or either objected and their was never any sort of mass vote, add to that that the area in question is the same size as the Louisiana Purchase and is comprised of vast amounts of area obviously not part of any Tribe.