Blue Skies in Camelot (Continued): An Alternate 80s and Beyond

My thoughts as well lol It's especially maddening when they have an increasingly popular Miles Morales right there. You can still have Spider-Man stories set in high school/college. And Miles' unique backstory and characterization can help those types of stories feel fresh again.
Absolutely! I miss Mayday Parker as Spider-Girl. Pretty sure Marvel comics have just forgotten she existed. Have Peter and MJ marry, Peter retired as Spider-man and his daughter as the next generation. She and Miles would be the perfect team up.
 
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Thank you :) Dafoe is one of those actors whom I truly believe can do anything. Such incredible range. He's one of my favorites. While he's great at playing unhinged villains, I like his turns as a hero as well. I'm imagining that his take on Bruce Wayne would be a bit of his detective from American Psycho and Agent Ward from Mississippi Burning with a bit of that classic Batman angst and brooding. Though IOTL, Burton wasn't keen on including Robin/Dick Grayson, I'd like to see us try to work him in as well, maybe in time for the sequel.
I just hope that if there's a Batman and Robin equivalent film ITTL it's handled better and more successful.
 
Absolutely! I miss Mayday Parker as Spider-Girl. Pretty sure Marvel comics have just forgotten she existed. Have Peter and MJ marry, Prtter retired as Spider-man and his daughter as the next generation. She and Miles would be the perfect team up.
That'd be interesting
 
Absolutely! I miss Mayday Parker as Spider-Girl. Pretty sure Marvel comics have just forgotten she existed. Have Peter and MJ marry, Prtter retired as Spider-man and his daughter as the next generation. She and Miles would be the perfect team up.
That sounds pretty good to me! :D To some extent, a status quo ad infinitum is inevitable with a medium like comics. You have to do "resets" from time to time in order to keep coming up with new storylines and such. But I agree it's necessary to produce a hard, permanent shift from time to time, especially for characters that have been around for decades and decades.
 
As for your comic update, it was great! The movies sound amazing! Killing Aunt May instead of Gwen Stacy is definitely a huge change but actually I think it will work. Now Peter has lost both his parental figures which would only add to his sense to help people as Spider-man.
Gwen still being alive also means that in TTL the love triangle between Peter, Mary Jane and Gwen will continue.
 
As for your comic update, it was great! The movies sound amazing! Killing Aunt May instead of Gwen Stacy is definitely a huge change but actually I think it will work. Now Peter has lost both his parental figures which would only add to his sense to help people as Spider-man.
Gwen still being alive also means that in TTL the love triangle between Peter, Mary Jane and Gwen will continue.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. For the storylines immediately following the loss of Aunt May (as I alluded to in the update), I see Peter struggling with grief and lashing out in anger as a result. He pushes Gwen away, terminating their relationship because he's worried he'll be unable to save her (should anything bad happen to her). This parallels the introduction of the Punisher as a villain (whose family was brutally murdered, etc.) allowing Castle to act as a dark foil to Spider-Man. At the climax of that arc, Peter realizes that what distinguishes him from a man like Frank Castle is that Spider-Man is about more than simply "punishing" criminals. He's about justice. Setting things right. That said, he's still got to work through his grief. Which could be a convenient set-up to introduce the symbiote and the black suit in the future...

Personally, I've always preferred Peter and Mary Jane together ultimately, rather than Gwen. But I could see arguments being made for both ITTL.
 

LordYam

Banned
My thoughts as well lol It's especially maddening when they have an increasingly popular Miles Morales right there. You can still have Spider-Man stories set in high school/college. And Miles' unique backstory and characterization can help those types of stories feel fresh again.
One of the biggest problems with Superheroes is that they don't let characters conclude their stories. As such they're trapped in an endless middle going through the same motions until they become cheap imitations of what they were.

It's one of the things I loved about the First Three Phases of MCU: They told a complete story, with a beginning middle and end. Tony starts out as a selfish arms dealer and dies saving the universe. It had bumpy elements (a large part of it was due to Ike Perlmutter's racism and sexism) but there was a solid story arc over it.

Spiderman had it bad. The whole point of the character is maturity, which involves.....growing up. Add in that he can still have problems even if he's married to a model, that he had aged physically, that having him sleep around with other girls is both juvenile and pathetic, and that a lot of the opposition to Mary Jane was sexism (she doesn't fit the "whore or mommy" dynamic a lot of people have, being sexually confident and also kind hearted) and it comes off like people trying to write the stories THEY wanted as teens but didn't get. Dan Didio of DC was much the same way; they thought stories should piss off fans, but you get the feeling they were bitter that they weren't pandered to when they were reading and want to write the stories the younger them would have liked.

Geoff Johns, for all his problems, was willing to acknowledge that other fans and eras existed and that they should be respected. As such, while he still preferred the Silver Age, he wasn't afraid to update the stories to be more inclusive, and he still gave characters introduced after Hal and Barry a chance to shine and have their moment in the sun. He also was willing to expand on the lore of the universe (the color spectrum was a brilliant contribution). He's not perfect by any means but I will give him credit for realizing that fans of other eras deserved to be treated with respect.

Note: Gwen wasn't actually all that popular with the fans from what I heard; she was seen as one of the more expandable characters. It was only later that she was built up as this legendary love interest (and it was largely rooted in dislike of Mary Jane due to the aforementioned misogyny).
 
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. For the storylines immediately following the loss of Aunt May (as I alluded to in the update), I see Peter struggling with grief and lashing out in anger as a result. He pushes Gwen away, terminating their relationship because he's worried he'll be unable to save her (should anything bad happen to her). This parallels the introduction of the Punisher as a villain (whose family was brutally murdered, etc.) allowing Castle to act as a dark foil to Spider-Man. At the climax of that arc, Peter realizes that what distinguishes him from a man like Frank Castle is that Spider-Man is about more than simply "punishing" criminals. He's about justice. Setting things right. That said, he's still got to work through his grief. Which could be a convenient set-up to introduce the symbiote and the black suit in the future...

Personally, I've always preferred Peter and Mary Jane together ultimately, rather than Gwen. But I could see arguments being made for both ITTL.
Sounds amazing! Can't wait for it!

I personally prefer Peter and Felicia together as a couple but I also quite like Mary Jane as well.

Do you have any plans for storylines involving Gwen btw?
 
One of the biggest problems with Superheroes is that they don't let characters conclude their stories. As such they're trapped in an endless middle going through the same motions until they become cheap imitations of what they were.

It's one of the things I loved about the First Three Phases of MCU: They told a complete story, with a beginning middle and end. Tony starts out as a selfish arms dealer and dies saving the universe. It had bumpy elements (a large part of it was due to Ike Perlmutter's racism and sexism) but there was a solid story arc over it.

Spiderman had it bad. The whole point of the character is maturity, which involves.....growing up. Add in that he can still have problems even if he's married to a model, that he had aged physically, that having him sleep around with other girls is both juvenile and pathetic, and that a lot of the opposition to Mary Jane was sexism (she doesn't fit the "whore or mommy" dynamic a lot of people have, being sexually confident and also kind hearted) and it comes off like people trying to write the stories THEY wanted as teens but didn't get. Dan Didio of DC was much the same way; they thought stories should piss off fans, but you get the feeling they were bitter that they weren't pandered to when they were reading and want to write the stories the younger them would have liked.

Geoff Johns, for all his problems, was willing to acknowledge that other fans and eras existed and that they should be respected. As such, while he still preferred the Silver Age, he wasn't afraid to update the stories to be more inclusive, and he still gave characters introduced after Hal and Barry a chance to shine and have their moment in the sun. He also was willing to expand on the lore of the universe (the color spectrum was a brilliant contribution). He's not perfect by any means but I will give him credit for realizing that fans of other eras deserved to be treated with respect.

Note: Gwen wasn't actually all that popular with the fans from what I heard; she was seen as one of the more expandable characters. It was only later that she was built up as this legendary love interest (and it was largely rooted in dislike of Mary Jane due to the aforementioned misogyny).
👏👏👏
 

LordYam

Banned
For the Star Wars EU: Here's a list of the various Legends book series up to 1999. I'm leaving out movie novelisation's.

Splinter of the Minds Eye: 1978. I believe this was a possible sequel....a low budget one. Foster wrote it while ANH was still being produced. Harrison Ford hadn't been contracted for any sequels at this point. In short it's very much early instillment weirdness.

Han Solo Trilogy: 1979-1980: Covers Hans adventures before the movie. Very well regarded (I've seen people who HATE the EU and like this series).

Lando Calrissian Trilogy: 1983: I've heard mixed things; some elements like the Sharu are well liked but it's always been a very weird one.

Thrawn Trilogy: 1991-1993: Basically what started the EU and in many ways brought Star Wars back into the public conscience. If anything it showed there was definitely a market for it despite what some people thought.

Jedi Prince Series (1992-1993): Young reader books. Not very good (I read one when I was 8 and even I found it corny), but it's heart is in the right place and it's sin is more just being overly goofy rather than mean spirited. It also helps that the EU was still finding it's feet, and there were a few cool ideas that were salvaged by later writers (Kadann and the Prophets of the Dark Side, Jabba's dad).

Truce at Bakura (1993): Immediate followup to Return; features the Ssi-Ruk. Also has one of Luke's first love interests, Gaeriel Captison. I like the idea that the Rebels have to show that they can protect the citizens of the galaxy now that the war is over.

Jedi Academy Trilogy (1994): Shows the foundation of the Jedi. Generally Kevin Anderson gets dunked on and to be honest he's a mixed bag, having made stories that were genuinely compelling....but also stories that were painfully stupid. Some elements of the trilogy (the Sun Crusher, Kyp Durron being forgiven for committing mass murder) are rightly criticised, but I think a few elements could be salvaged if Anderson had better editors.

Courtship of Princess Leia (1994): VERY much a mixed bag; things like Dathomir and Hapes would be kept but Han kidnapping Leia has NOT aged well at all, and Hapes is seen as oddly sexist in many ways. Zsinj was introduced but was kinda bog standard (Aaron Allston had to make him compelling). Hilariously enough was meant to be a trilogy of books.

Crystal Star (1994): Widely considered to be THE worst Star Wars book ever, partially because it feels more like a Star Trek episode. That said, there were a few things that were kinda cool. Luke has an awesome moment, and the Empire Reborn was resalvaged in the games into something kinda cool. Again, the problem was more that it felt out of place and it was isolated, meaning it avoided being as long term harmful as later stuff.

Corellian Trilogy (1995): In some ways it's reception has improved over the years; the world building for Corellia is pretty good, and Centerpoint Station is one of the better examples of an EU super weapon (partially because it's Precursor Tech rather than something the empire pulls out of it's ass, and it wasn't originally designed to be a weapon). Gaeriel Captison returns (and dies). That said, VERY few people like Thracken Sal Solo at all.

Children of the Jedi (1995): The start of the Callista trilogy; not well liked but some elements are respected and the general consensus is that Hambley herself wasn't a bad writer, she just wasn't a good fit.

Darksaber (1995): Second Part of the Callista Trilogy: Not very well regarded at all, and is generally seen to embody many of Anderson's worst excesses. That said, there are a few moments that even the haters genuinely love (Daala tries to get the various warlords to stop squabbling, and when they fail she goes "fuck this" and gasses them all to death.)

Tales Series (1995-1999): Anthology series. Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina focuses on the people in the Cantina in ANH, Jabba's Palace focuses on Jabba's Palace, and Tales from the New Republic is focused on EU stuff; Tales of the Bounty Hunters focuses on the various bounty hunters; the story with IG-88 is VERY widely panned. Tales from the Empire is kinda the same in that it focuses on EU characters (it also has Zahn and Stackpole collaborate).

Young Jedi Knights Series (1995-1998): Spinoffs focusing on Jacen Jaina and Anakin. Haven't really read them, but heard mixed things. In hindsight can be seen as the light hearted adventures the kids have before the NJO rather brutally makes it darker.

Junior Jedi Knights Series (1995-1998): Connected to above

X-Wing Series (1996-1999; 2012): The Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron stuff. The Wraith Squadron Stuff is universally well regarded, but the Rogue stuff is more mixed. Stackpole has good and bad points, and while he can do character some think Corran Horn is a mary sue.

Shadows of the Empire (1996): Part of the multimedia project. Some parts endured (like Black Sun) but other stuff (like Xizor) may not fly and probably haven't aged well at all.

Black Fleet Crisis (1996): The trilogy in which the Yevetha (uber xenophobic aliens) show up and try to exterminate the people in their cluster. There are three plot lines; the Yevetha one is better regarded, the Lando one is considered slow and boring, and the Luke one was ultimately a red herring given we know he won't meet his mom. VERY likely inspired by the Yugoslav Wars.

The New Rebellion (1996): Kinda mixed. I personally think that some of the ideas (Droids being used as bombers) were cool, and Kueller actually had a relatively sympathetic backstory, but there's a lot of minimalism in it.

Planet of Twilight (1997): Last of the Callista Trilogy. Features a Hutt Dark Jedi, and is generally considered kinda weird.

Galaxy of Fear (1997-1998): Young reader series. Interestingly it focuses more on horror

Han Solo Trilogy by Ann Crispin (1997-1998): Focuses on the Han's younger years; some elements are divisive (Bria Tharen is either love em or hate em) but some elements are very well liked and were kept around (Han's childhood, his meeting Chewbacca). One can even argue that Bria was a proto Qira. Ends with Han going to the cantina where he will meet Luke and Obi Wan.

Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire (1997): Kyle Katarn's origin story

Hand of Thrawn Duology (1997-1998): Sort of the swan song for the Bantam EU, featuring the peace treaty between the Republic and Empire

Dark Forces Rebel Agent (1998): Novelization of part of Dark Forces II.

Dark Forces Jedi Knight (1998): Second half of Dark Forces II in novel form

Bounty Hunter Wars Trilogy (1998-1999): Stars Boba Fett; a lot of the stuff got retconned pretty soon with the prequels.
 
Loved the comics update. Having Aunt May killed changes things in the Spider-Man world for sure. Will wait for the other updates, especially the alternate Empire Strikes Back. Fan of Peter and MJ myself as a couple. Have an idea for a likely love interest for Gwen, if interested, that is. If you're able to have Diana Spencer and JFK Junior as a couple, that'd be pretty cool.
 
Loved the comics update. Having Aunt May killed changes things in the Spider-Man world for sure. Will wait for the other updates, especially the alternate Empire Strikes Back. Fan of Peter and MJ myself as a couple. Have an idea for a likely love interest for Gwen, if interested, that is. If you're able to have Diana Spencer and JFK Junior as a couple, that'd be pretty cool.
Always happy to hear your suggestions. :) Glad you enjoyed the update.
 

LordYam

Banned
Since Jack Kirby is still here I assume this means that he never had his falling out with Stan Lee. That means no Darkseid for the DCU and that the New Gods might be part of Marvel.

Another thing is that Marvel was in VERY hot water during the late 70s; the editing structure hadn't changed since the 60s, and while this might have worked when they had one or two writers (or 8) it failed when they had 50. There were missed deadlines, no continuity, and a lot of stories that were kinda bad. The main reason they didn't go under was the Star Wars comics (they were months away from bankruptcy when the sales of the comic helped them make a profit).

While Jim Shooter was definitely kind of an asshole (and a homophobe), a lot of what he did saved the company (overhauling the editing structure, forcing writers to adhere to continuity and meet deadlines, making them have simpler stories). He had problems but a lot of the bile he got was anger that he was spoiling their fun and forcing them to be grown up.
 

LordYam

Banned
I forgot I Jedi; in some ways it has sueish elements, but on the other hand it addresses some of the dumber parts of the JAT.
 

LordYam

Banned
Also, apparently the reason WEG went under was because the owner embezzled money to prop up his failing shoe company. Maybe that can be avoided here. I also hope that it at least avoids the 8km Executor nonsense (basically someone misread the novelization and never bothered to correct it; while some of the "tech head" fans could be obnoxious they were right that it contradicted the films, but because a lot of people liked the WEG stuff they violently rejected the criticism).

There's also a list of lost star wars EU stuff: https://www.starwarstimeline.net/Lost Books.htm
 
Also, apparently the reason WEG went under was because the owner embezzled money to prop up his failing shoe company. Maybe that can be avoided here. I also hope that it at least avoids the 8km Executor nonsense (basically someone misread the novelization and never bothered to correct it; while some of the "tech head" fans could be obnoxious they were right that it contradicted the films, but because a lot of people liked the WEG stuff they violently rejected the criticism).

There's also a list of lost star wars EU stuff: https://www.starwarstimeline.net/Lost Books.htm
I have to wonder how that mistake happened? Although in all honesty 19km (or 60 in the case of the Supremacy) is getting a bit ridiculous in terms of size, maybe someone wanted to cut it down a bit?
 
I like the pop culture chapters, makes the world feel very very alive

Gwen still being alive also means that in TTL the love triangle between Peter, Mary Jane and Gwen will continue.
Oh GOD. Comic book love triangles are awful.

I know this is supposed to be a kinder gentler nation n shit but comic book romance is always gonna suck I’m afraid
 

LordYam

Banned
I have to wonder how that mistake happened? Although in all honesty 19km (or 60 in the case of the Supremacy) is getting a bit ridiculous in terms of size, maybe someone wanted to cut it down a bit?
The model maker notes (and scaling) shows the Exxecutor to be about 17.5 km I believe. Someone misinterpreted the novelisation's description and it just never got corrected.

19km is pretty easy in star wars terms; they built the freaking death star after all
 
The model maker notes (and scaling) shows the Exxecutor to be about 17.5 km I believe. Someone misinterpreted the novelisation's description and it just never got corrected.

19km is pretty easy in star wars terms; they built the freaking death star after all
True but that's explicitly not very fast or agile (it's a slightly mobile bombardment platform) Executor is a warship apparently able to operate inside an asteroid thicket and Supremacy was fast enough to keep up with Leia's fleet for a prolonged period of time.
 
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