Castlereagh puts down the knife

[Tom_B]

In Aug 1822 Lord Castlereagh slit his own throat with a penknife. What if he did not and his depression lifted enough for him to remain functional? He was much more favorable to the Congress System and the Holy Alliance than Canning.

One particularly interesting aspect of this is that Castlereagh may not have opposed the Holy Alliance's desires to send an expedition to the Americas to put down the rebellion in Spain's colonies.

 

[Max Sinister]

I know a story that he has been blackmailed, after having homosexual contacts (which was punishable by death then; the story says that he contacted a woman on the street, who was really a transvestite).

 

[stevep]

In Aug 1822 Lord Castlereagh slit his own throat with a penknife. What if he did not and his depression lifted enough for him to remain functional? He was much more favorable to the Congress System and the Holy Alliance than Canning.

One particularly interesting aspect of this is that Castlereagh may not have opposed the Holy Alliance's desires to send an expedition to the Americas to put down the rebellion in Spain's colonies.

Tom

I think if Castlereagh lived there would probably be a more right wing government as I think he was also a rival of Canning. However your still got the economic question. Britain was making good money trading with the freed colonies and knew it would lose that trade if Spain regained control. [Unless possibly the French and Spanish made some deal with Britain possibly]. Even then powerful elements in Britain will probably not be too willing to see France gain too much power.

If some deal was reached and Britain stood aside then things could go very bad for the rebels. France has a lot of Napoleonic veterans who the monarchy would probably be glad to get well away from France and they could do a lot of damage to the rebel forces. With some of the Marshals leading them as well even with the vast differences involved. They also have plenty of experience of fighting with poor logistics and living off the land. [Although if conflict lasted a while you might see defections, possibly in considerable numbers, which could add an interesting complication]. It could be a lasting quagmire for the French and Spanish however and a later change of mind by a different British government, say after some massacres, could possibly force them out. How that would affect the development of Latin America would depend on the circumstances but a lot of the initial leaders OTL could be lost.

A stronger right wing element in Britain could led to further repression but also a stronger reaction when it occurs. Hopefully change will still come and be largely peaceful but might not be and could be stronger for being delayed.

You are highly unlikely to see a Monroe Doctrine in TTL, or, if he is rash enough to make it, it will be seen as a dead letter as the US doesn't have anything like the strength to intervene at this time period. Again either of those options could have effects further down the line. Possibly an even more isolationist US taking no interest in events outside its borders?

Steve

 

[vorkosigan]

I'm giving this one hell of a bump - but this the only thread with "Castlereagh" in it's title, and it interests me...

It seems (according to wikipedia! ) that a lot of the stress on Castlereagh was that he was leader of the House of Commons as well as being foreign secretary, so he was in the frontline for defending unpopular domestic policies that weren't under his control.

Any reason why he couldn't reduce the pressure on himself by relinquishing the leader of the commons post - and if so, who might take it???

 

[Thande]

It seems (according to wikipedia! ) that a lot of the stress on Castlereagh was that he was leader of the House of Commons as well as being foreign secretary,

I knew things were a bit odd under Liverpool, but how can a lord be leader of the House of Commons?

 

[vorkosigan]

Good question.

I believe that his father was still alive, so that he had a courtesy title only.

He was an MP for a rotten borough in Cornwall....

 

[stevep]

Good question.

I believe that his father was still alive, so that he had a courtesy title only.

He was an MP for a rotten borough in Cornwall....

That gives one option then. Something happens to his father so his title because formal. At that time he could still be Foreign Secretary from the Lords easily enough but someone else would have to take on the Commons and resultant stresses.

Steve

 

[Nekromans]

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Castlereagh - it's not his fault he was the mouthpiece for assaults on British freedom. I'd hope that he'd manage to get one over on Canning in the end - is there any chance of him getting the top spot?

 

[vorkosigan]

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Castlereagh - it's not his fault he was the mouthpiece for assaults on British freedom. I'd hope that he'd manage to get one over on Canning in the end - is there any chance of him getting the top spot?

Looks like you know more about this period of history than I do ... if I start a TL going, your comments would be most welcome....

 

[Falastur]

I knew things were a bit odd under Liverpool, but how can a lord be leader of the House of Commons?

This was an era when Lords were commonly elected as MPs, and weren't disbarred from being so. A Lord had automatic membership of the House of Lords but could freely join the Commons if he was elected. Thus the string of ennobled Prime Ministers. Since the Commons was, is and always has been the place where laws are formed since the rise of Parliamentary power it was a simple decision that any Lord wanting to get into government as a full time career should enter the Commons - simply put he could do more there and make a name for himself. Later on, I can't remember when exactly, it was codified that a Lord couldn't be an MP and that stopped.

 

[Tom_B]

I am glad to see renewed interest in this project. I was more interested in the foreign than domestic implications.

 

[vorkosigan]

I am glad to see renewed interest in this project. I was more interested in the foreign than domestic implications.

Do you think that if Castlereagh had been in a stronger position - mentally and politically - he could given the conservative states in Europe an earlier chance to quash the Liberals in Spain - and in that way prevent Mexico from going independent for a while?

 

[Tom_B]

Do you think that if Castlereagh had been in a stronger position - mentally and politically - he could given the conservative states in Europe an earlier chance to quash the Liberals in Spain - and in that way prevent Mexico from going independent for a while?

Yes but I think it might go a bit further. I could see a Holy Alliance expedition against Bolivar which Canning in OTL said he would stop with the RN.

 

[DuQuense]

There were several Filibustering Expeditions into Texas during the 18teens, Mexico [spain] basically arrested them and escorted them to the Border.
If there are a lot of Napoleon Veterans running around, things could get a lot Bloodier, With a impact on American public opinion.

 

[V-J]

I knew things were a bit odd under Liverpool, but how can a lord be leader of the House of Commons?

Castlereagh was, IIRC, an Irish peer, and after 1800 Irish peers elected only certain of their members to represent them in the Lords - other Irish peers were perfectly free to sit in the Commons. (as some peers do today, post-1999 reform, incidentally) All British lords automatically had to join the Lords when they became such and had no choice in the matter.

This was used as workaround in some cases to enoble someone while leaving them with an open choice as to their Parliamentary career in the future - for example, Lord Curzon, when he became Viceroy of India, was enobled as an Irish peer despite having absolutely no connection with Ireland.

In some cases the Lord was purely nominal as the son of a peer, or used a courtesy title, for instance, 'Lord' Randolph Churchill, who wasn't a Lord in any real sense.

 

[Grey Wolf]

This was an era when Lords were commonly elected as MPs, and weren't disbarred from being so. A Lord had automatic membership of the House of Lords but could freely join the Commons if he was elected. Thus the string of ennobled Prime Ministers. Since the Commons was, is and always has been the place where laws are formed since the rise of Parliamentary power it was a simple decision that any Lord wanting to get into government as a full time career should enter the Commons - simply put he could do more there and make a name for himself. Later on, I can't remember when exactly, it was codified that a Lord couldn't be an MP and that stopped.

I'm sorry but this is COMPLETELY wrong

I think you are mistaking political relevance for membership of the House of Commons. As vorkosigan already explained Castlereagh's title was a courtsey title only - ie it was held by the elder son of a senior peer, but did not come with membership of the Lords (since in legal truth his father still held the viscountcy itself)

EVERY peer you can think of who had a major political career was either a courtesy-titled heir in the Commons, or a full-fledged member of the Lords. It is no problem AT ALL if you are individually in the Lords, but the Commons has more power than the Lords - your position in the cabinet allows you to formulate policy. If you cannot personally shove it through the Commons, someone else does as your deputy. Where you are individually is an irrelevance

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[vorkosigan]

When people are in as desperate a state of mind as Castlereagh was - I can't think offhand of any other prominent British politician who committed suicide - they can do almost anything.

As a alternative to suicide , Castlereagh might undergone some kind of religious experience - maybe making him even more sympathetic towards the Holy Alliance than he was apparently in our OTL

 

[Grey Wolf]

Of course, the exception to what I said earlier was with those who were ONLY Irish peers, for whom after the Act of Union only a number were elected by themselves to the Lords.

Thus, Curzon as the example given

- - -

Regarding Castlereagh

Robert Stewart acquired the courtesy title Viscount Castlereagh in 1796 when his father was created Earl of Londonderry. He did not properly acquire the title until his father died in 1821, at which point in time he also became the Marquess of Londonderry, a title his father had been raised to in 1816. He is generally known to history, however, not as the 2nd Marquess of Londonderry but as Viscount Castlereagh, the title he was known by most of his adult life.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Alratan]

Of course, the exception to what I said earlier was with those who were ONLY Irish peers, for whom after the Act of Union only a number were elected by themselves to the Lords.

I believe this also applied to Scottish peers until 1963.

 

[V-J]

Of course, the exception to what I said earlier was with those who were ONLY Irish peers, for whom after the Act of Union only a number were elected by themselves to the Lords.

Thus, Curzon as the example given

Way to go in repeating exactly what I said earlier in the thread.