Challenger doesn't launch

[acgoldis]

Just saw this.

https://www.quora.com/Was-Apollo-11-possibly-the-riskiest-mission-that-NASA-has-ever-undertaken
"The riskiest mission was the final Challenger flight. The people involved knew that the O-ring was charring when the weather was cold. Originally, there was a standard that if there was charring on the ring, then that was no longer safe. Charring appeared. Then it was decided that if the charring was more than 25% of the ring, it wasn’t safe. The charring exceeded 25%. Then it was decided that if the charring was more than 50%, it wasn’t safe. You can see the clear pattern and what it will inevitably lead to. The range safety officer knew that the fateful flight was the coldest day that they’d ever launched. He knew the O-ring was burning through more and more dependent on cold. launching was an unacceptable risk. As the final authority, he aborted the launch. But the executives at NASA didn’t like that. They went to Morton-Thiokol. The senior engineer at Morton-Thiokol told his execs that it was an unacceptable risk. They, based on no more factual basis than the NASA execs, decided that their engineer was being overly cautious. They told NASA it was OK to launch. The NASA execs told the Cape to launch.
To launch when it is clear that there is a high probability of failure clearly makes this the riskiest mission NASA ever undertook.
p.s. No criminal charges were brought."

Everyone was saying to abort the launch. What happens if they actually do so? Not only that, but everyone tells NASA to take a look at their work protocols and forces them to realize they're going too fast?

I mean when you're getting to the point when you're allowed to launch with half an O-ring missing because people were getting sick of delays and you can SEE the charring prior to launch...

You'd have figured that they'd rethink their protocols for the first flight to have a civilian teacher on board...

 

[acgoldis]

One more thing. The fact the teacher was on board inevitably had the school kids watching it live all over the country. We were all dragged into the multipurpose room to see the launch.

Everyone got excited as the shuttle took off.

Now here's the interesting part. I liked math and science so i was the only one who knew what a successful launch was supposed to look like. The other people, including most of the adults, had no idea what to expect.

When the Challenger blows up, there is no reaction. I start saying that this is not normal and something went wrong. Still nothing. Finally, they figure it out and shut off the TV.

 

[Histor32]

Every manned space flight has risks, with one of them being catastrophic failure and loss of life.

Was Apollo 11 the riskiest? I'd say it took a lot of guts .. but every thing has risks

Space is unforgiving with mistakes

 

[Dancing Fool]

I mean when you're getting to the point when you're allowed to launch with half an O-ring missing because people were getting sick of delays

I think you’ve identified the key tension spot. On the one hand, it is normal and healthy to push the envelop as we learn more about something. On the other hand, well, this one we clearly pushed too much!

Don’t launch below [I think] 59 degrees Fahrenheit, which was the previous low temperature launch. It’s going to be kind of a tough pill to swallow, because we’re pretty much admitting it’s unsafe. But go ahead and swallow that pill.

And then,

realistically,

pretty much for all organizations . . .

No one gets credit for the bridge which doesn’t collapse!

 

[Hammerbolt]

Post-abort inspection leads to some rework being done on the quiet, repairs/replacements just enough to get the word "go". Shuttle launches some days (weeks?) latter, NASA does some back pats and high fives and nothing fundamental changes. Ultimately the same complacency and inertia remains... leading to a disaster within 3-4 launches.

 

[Histor32]

Post-abort inspection leads to some rework being done on the quiet, repairs/replacements just enough to get the word "go". Shuttle launches some days (weeks?) latter, NASA does some back pats and high fives and nothing fundamental changes. Ultimately the same complacency and inertia remains... leading to a disaster within 3-4 launches.

Accidents are inevitable, good inspection and listening can prevent a lot, but not everything. Something was bound to go wrong with the shuttle at some point. I'm surprised no suit has ever failed in space yet personally, and a number of other items that haven't yet occurred

 

[Hammerbolt]

Accidents are inevitable, good inspection and listening can prevent a lot, but not everything. Something was bound to go wrong with the shuttle at some point. I'm surprised no suit has ever failed in space yet personally, and a number of other items that haven't yet occurred

Inevitable yes, but poor standards and lax atitudes will increase them.

 

[Garrison]

Inevitable yes, but poor standards and lax atitudes will increase them.

Yeah this wasn't an unfortunate or unforeseen event, this was an institutional issue with NASA in that timeframe and ducking the O ring issue just moves things to whatever the next issue they are ignoring is.

 

[acgoldis]

Check out my next post. The burnout occurs right after SRB separation in that scenario, when the booster is already off to the side. The shuttle survives but everyone sees the burnout live. Guess what everyone talks about during the 8 minute main engine jaunt to orbit...

 

[Hammerbolt]

Yeah this wasn't an unfortunate or unforeseen event, this was an institutional issue with NASA in that timeframe and ducking the O ring issue just moves things to whatever the next issue they are ignoring is.

Yep, which is why I said "disaster within 3-4 launches". If there was one good thing about this disaster was to bring to light the problems in NASA (and the political management...) and force things to be fixed.

 

[Histor32]

Yeah this wasn't an unfortunate or unforeseen event, this was an institutional issue with NASA in that timeframe and ducking the O ring issue just moves things to whatever the next issue they are ignoring is.

Not disagreeing, same thing can be said for the Titanic or Hindenburg. If things work they seldom change until something goes horribly wrong. Space agencies have been bloody lucky with the very few catastrophic that have happened

 

[MxCokoko]

If we want to avoid Challenger being launched, at least in my opinion, we need to make NASA listen to their engineers and side with them over Reagan. Yeah, yeah, kids will be disappointed that they couldn't see the shuttle launched and things will be delayed, but I think that's a worthy sacrifice in exchange for one of the most worst domestic events in modern US history. A disaster is bound to happen at some point (The Columbia disaster still probably occurs), but without the Challenger Disaster and instead this idea I proposed, the Shuttles might be sidelined earlier in favor of the safer (albeit, more expensive) traditional rocket system. Maybe we see a variant of the Atlas II designed to ferry people to and from the ISS, and maybe the SLS program or this TL's version of it later on.

 

[Dancing Fool]

Now here's the interesting part. I liked math and science so i was the only one who knew what a successful launch was supposed to look like. The other people, including most of the adults, had no idea what to expect.

When the Challenger blows up, there is no reaction. I start saying that this is not normal and something went wrong. Still nothing. Finally, they figure it out and shut off the TV.

Thank you for showing leadership and speaking up. Especially in school, which can be a punishing environment for speaking up.

I’m going to guess that the school had no follow-up, such as inviting students to sign a card for each of the 7 families who lost a family member. Including and especially for the family of Christa McAuliffe, and that’s likely to resonate the most because she’s a teacher. But students are well able to understand that each of the families lost a loved one.

Put the cards in a large manila envelope and write on the outside “Cards from elementary students for all 7 families.” Maybe call NASA one time to get the best address, but don’t harass them.

But I’m guessing the school didn’t do anything like this. People don’t know how to handle uncomfortable situations. People get stumped, and numbed out, etc.

PS Maybe you were older than elementary school for this level of maturity and confidence. In either case, good for you!