Francia as China analogue

[Hrvatskiwi]

Been having this thought for a few days now and thought I would see what y'all think. How would you have Francia as a Chinese analogue, that is, the core region remaining consistent, with cycles of expansion and retraction, unity and disunity. The country has to be big enough to maintain internal diversity, but still have a "Frankish" identity. As it is, "Frank" was a term used by the Byzantine and Arabs to mean Western Europeans in general. What if the political reality somewhat reflected that?

BTW the regions I'm thinking of as the core is France, Germany and the Low Countries, with Northern Italy, NE Spain, the Basque region, Bohemia and Austria as areas coming in and out of the empire.

 

[Dargonaut]

Maybe you could have the Carolingian empire centered around the Northern European plain. Around Northern France, Germany and Poland. Still probably to much regional identities. Probably would be separatist heaven

 

[Avrorrange]

Been having this thought for a few days now and thought I would see what y'all think. How would you have Francia as a Chinese analogue, that is, the core region remaining consistent, with cycles of expansion and retraction, unity and disunity. The country has to be big enough to maintain internal diversity, but still have a "Frankish" identity. As it is, "Frank" was a term used by the Byzantine and Arabs to mean Western Europeans in general. What if the political reality somewhat reflected that?

BTW the regions I'm thinking of as the core is France, Germany and the Low Countries, with Northern Italy, NE Spain, the Basque region, Bohemia and Austria as areas coming in and out of the empire.

Wouldn't that be the WRE as a Chinese analogue? The Franks assumed the Imperial dignity and saw themselves as successors to the WRE.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Have the Franks abandon the idea of partitive inheritance, ideally back in the fifth century before their expansion gets going. Without the Frankish realm splitting and reuniting every generation or so, people would come to accept the unity of OTL's France and Germany as a natural and desirable state of affairs, providing an impetus for these areas to stay united.

Also, have a Carolingian-Renaissance-type event (Merovingian Renaissance?) much earlier on. Have literacy and knowledge of Latin and the classics be widespread, at least among the nobility, giving them more of a common cultural koine to preserve a sense of unity. This would also have the benefit of increasing the pool of potential bureaucrats, providing the Frankish kings with another way of knitting their territories more closely together.

 

[Kaze]

Considering how Frankia and latter France dominated language, art, military science, fashion, etc for centuries of European history - (remember the language I am typing right now has some French in it - not a lot, but some)... it could in theory be the Western version of China - if you consider China the cultural center of Asia and the other nations copied it.

 

[stevej713]

Wouldn't that be the WRE as a Chinese analogue? The Franks assumed the Imperial dignity and saw themselves as successors to the WRE.

Eh, not really. The Franks saw themselves as Franks. Assuming Roman titles was a convenient political tool used first by the Papacy to drive a wedge between themselves and the Imperial-dominated church in Constantinople. It's been debated over the years whether Charlemagne even wanted to be crowned Emperor, knowing all the trouble it would cause with the Byzantines. To successive kings like Otto the Great, being crowned Roman Emperor was seen as inheriting the legacy of Charlemagne, not Rome.

In my opinion, preserving the chance of unity in Western Europe post-Charlemagne would require a different Treaty of Verdun, which would prevent the permanent East-West divide that produced Germany and France. If the Empire was split North-South instead of East-West, there might end up being the long-term coalescence of a Northern European empire that controls the whole plain from Brittany to the Elbe and beyond.

 

[Silver01]

While the comparison is there , there are some huge differences

1) geography China is located between main rivers wich connect it
Making unity easier .

2) the burocrats while responsible for many bad things in chinise history , had their center of power with the emperor ,and thus centraly located , compared that to Europe where lords got their castles and armies .

3) rice agriculture is much more stable than wheat , meaning that state was more wealthy and we'll stable

4) China Invaders where nomadic , meaning that they had smaller numbers or if they did manage to conquer a part of China they would assimilate.

 

[twovultures]

In my opinion, preserving the chance of unity in Western Europe post-Charlemagne would require a different Treaty of Verdun, which would prevent the permanent East-West divide that produced Germany and France. If the Empire was split North-South instead of East-West, there might end up being the long-term coalescence of a Northern European empire that controls the whole plain from Brittany to the Elbe and beyond.

A lot of the "China-like Europe" threads I've read focus on the Mediterranean, so this is a refreshing take to see a politically centralized empire in northern Europe. I do wonder how this state would get along with its neighbors?

England would probably be dominated by this polity, but not necessarily directly. Rather, the English king(s) could swear vassalage to the Northern Emperor, and in exchange be able to rely on mainland military support whenever a challenge to the crown arises, whether it's revolting nobility or Norse marauders.

Viking raids will probably still be an issue ITTL, and the response to them could make or break the N.E. as a military power. I do wonder what options could be open to this hypothetical empire that weren't to the kings of OTL-maintain a better navy? Fortify the north coast? Burn down Denmark as a warning to the other Norse countries? Or would they have to make do like France IOTL, gifting land to the Norse in the hopes of buying protection and getting their loyalty.

If the N.E. remains mostly concerned with keeping power north of the massif centrale, that leaves the Occitania region free from Paris' control throughout the Middle Ages. I love the idea of an Occitan-speaking, independent "south France" developing ITTL.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

1) geography China is located between main rivers wich connect it
Making unity easier .

2) the burocrats while responsible for many bad things in chinise history , had their center of power with the emperor ,and thus centraly located , compared that to Europe where lords got their castles and armies .

3) rice agriculture is much more stable than wheat , meaning that state was more wealthy and we'll stable

4) China Invaders where nomadic , meaning that they had smaller numbers or if they did manage to conquer a part of China they would assimilate.

I agree with points 2-4, although I don't think geography plays much of a role, really. It's not like there are many natural barriers in Europe north of the Alps or Carpathians, and Europe has its own large river systems (the Rhine and Danube, most notably) to facilitate communications.

 

[Silver01]

I agree with points 2-4, although I don't think geography plays much of a role, really. It's not like there are many natural barriers in Europe north of the Alps or Carpathians, and Europe has its own large river systems (the Rhine and Danube, most notably) to facilitate communications.

geography played its role a little , but the most crucial role where the burocrats where centrlized so breaking off would cause trouble than its worth , lack of invaders to impose their culture , and rice being more stable than wheat .(wich has to do with geography and climate)

 

[funnyhat]

(remember the language I am typing right now has some French in it - not a lot, but some)

Actually quite a lot (French-derived words in bold).

Considering how Frankia and latter France dominated language, art, military science, fashion, etc for centuries of European history - (remember the language I am typing right now has some French in it - not a lot, but some)... it could in theory be the Western version of China - if you consider China the cultural center of Asia and the other nations copied it.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Francis I outbids Charles V and wins the 1519 election. He is proclaimed Holy Roman Emperor and in doing so asserts that it is a "reunification" of West Francia (France) and East Francia (Holy Rome). They proceed to defeat the Hapsburgs in a war and the Holy Roman Monarchy becomes a de facto French hereditary monarchy in the same manner as it became de facto Hapsburg OTL.

Being Holy Roman Emperor would have made also made Milan French (based on reading other threads) because of something to do with the French Monarchs descending from the Milanese royal family and it being a Holy Roman Territory (those two conflicting things - the inheritance and being an HRE territory - meant ownership of Milan was disputed. Here France has both elements, and thus gets Milan without war... I think).

Furthermore, the French move to seize the entirety of the Burgundian inheritance ... and in this hypo are successful. France is a massively wanked power.

The ultimate outcome is... endless war for France and the restored/united Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne. The Hapsburg inheritance here is smaller, which will mean that it won't be divided as it won't be as unruly to keep together - meaning there'd be a well-funded and strong enemy who can keep up the endless war against France.

Eventually, some coalition breaks France's hold on western and Central Europe for a century, but afterwards France comes back and "reunites" things. Thus there becomes a notion of there being cycles of division and reunification in the "Francian Realm".