Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon have more children

johnreiter

Banned
What if all of Catherine of Aragon's children by Henry were born safely and healthy, and grew to adulthood, living until their father's death?

In this timeline, the children of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon are:
Princess Elizabeth (born 1510)
Prince Henry (born 1511)
Prince Edward (born 1513)
Prince Edmund (born 1514)
Princess Mary (born 1516)
Princess Catherine (born 1518)
 
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ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

johnreiter said:
Princess Elizabeth (born 1510)
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Charles V (b. 1500)
johnreiter said:
Prince Henry (born 1511)
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Catherine of Austria (b. 1507) or a surviving Maria of Portugal (b. 1513)
johnreiter said:
Prince Edward (born 1513)
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Anne Bourchier
johnreiter said:
Prince Arthur (born 1514)
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Unlikely name, possible husband for Katherine Willoughby
johnreiter said:
Princess Mary (born 1516)
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James V of Scotland (b. 1512) or Francis III of Brittany (b. 1518)
johnreiter said:
Princess Margaret (born 1518)
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Francis III of Brittany (b. 1518), Hans of Denmark (b. 1518), Sigismund II of Poland (b. 1520)
 

Kellan Sullivan

ordinarylittleme said:
Edmund, Jasper, Owen, John, Ferdinand. ( @Kellan Sullivan @isabella can confirm better though )
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I don't see a problem with "Arthur" TBH. Edmund, Jasper and Owen aren't really "royal" names.

While Katherine Willoughby is an interesting heiress to be sure. Anne Bourchier, only surviving child of the earl of Essex, is probably a nice way of getting money and a title for the boy with minimal effort. Alternatively, let the 4e Earl of Kent have only a surviving daughter and she'd be a "decent" match. Not much in the way of money at this point, but it would see the "earldom of Kent" pass back to the crown.
 

isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
I don't see a problem with "Arthur" TBH. Edmund, Jasper and Owen aren't really "royal" names.

While Katherine Willoughby is an interesting heiress to be sure. Anne Bourchier, only surviving child of the earl of Essex, is probably a nice way of getting money and a title for the boy with minimal effort. Alternatively, let the 4e Earl of Kent have only a surviving daughter and she'd be a "decent" match. Not much in the way of money at this point, but it would see the "earldom of Kent" pass back to the crown.
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Any of the three girls is good. And I would say who any of Edmund, John and Arthur work as name (NOT Owen or Jasper and neither Ferdinand) @johnreiter
 

johnreiter

Banned
These are some of my thoughts

With six children from Catherine, including three boys, the English succession will be quite secure. Henry will probably marry again when Catherine dies, but only once more. He definitely doesn't need more sons at this point.

The Anglican Church probably would not be formed. If England does go protestant, it would be much later, and differently. Which is great for Thomas More, who will probably have a very successful career in government before he dies of old age.

Assuming Henry dies when he did IOTL, Prince Henry will become Henry IX at the age of 36
 

isabella

johnreiter said:
These are some of my thoughts

With six children from Catherine, including three boys, the English succession will be quite secure. Henry will probably marry again when Catherine dies, but only once more. He definitely doesn't need more sons at this point.

The Anglican Church probably would not be formed. If England does go protestant, it would be much later, and differently. Which is great for Thomas More, who will probably have a very successful career in government before he dies of old age.

Assuming Henry dies when he did IOTL, Prince Henry will become Henry IX at the age of 36
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Agreed
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

Personally I like going with Henry, Edward, and John for the sons of Henry viii and Katherine, as I know Katherine would likely want to name one of them after her late older brother. Also I would go with Katherine for the third daughter instead of Margaret, Henry didn’t have the best relationship with his sister Margaret and why should he not honor his wife who has given him three healthy sons?
 

johnreiter

Banned
Here's a question, would England still eventually become Protestant? I've heard arguments both ways in the past, some that England was solidly Catholic before Henry VIII, others that England was always inclined toward independence from Rome.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

johnreiter said:
Here's a question, would England still eventually become Protestant? I've heard arguments both ways in the past, some that England was solidly Catholic before Henry VIII, others that England was always inclined toward independence from Rome.
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Not within Katherine's lifetime, I don't think. She was certainly a devout Catholic and Henry ITTL will never leave her so she will be in power until her death.
 

Aichi72

johnreiter said:
Here's a question, would England still eventually become Protestant? I've heard arguments both ways in the past, some that England was solidly Catholic before Henry VIII, others that England was always inclined toward independence from Rome.
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I'm not sure I've heard such an argument before, but I don't buy it. France was probably just as inclined to independence from Rome since Gallicanism was thing, but they remained Catholic (even with the French Wars of Religion). IMO there might end up being some kind of Protestant minority presence in the south, but the country remains majority Catholic unless some future king converts and manages to not be overthrown. Also, without the Church of England, British Protestantism may be much more fractured, meaning that no one Protestant denomination is able to gain a majority, even if Protestants themselves manage to gain something like a plurality. England's relative isolation from the continent will also lessen the spread of Protestantism in the Isles.
ordinarylittleme said:
Not within Katherine's lifetime, I don't think. She was certainly a devout Catholic and Henry ITTL will never leave her so she will be in power until her death.
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Not to mention Henry VIII himself, who was also a devout Catholic until the Great Matter came up, he wasn't named Fidei Defensor for nothing. ITTL he probably remains a resolute Catholic and discourages the spread of the Revolution as much as possible.

Assuming England stays Catholic into the late 16th century, the Scottish Reformation and the Dutch Revolt probably go differently as well. There may even be butterflies in the Thirty Years' War as well, so continental Protestantism may be weaker ITTL as well.
 

CaesarKhan

ordinarylittleme said:
Charles V (b. 1500)

Catherine of Austria (b. 1507) or a surviving Maria of Portugal (b. 1513)

Anne Bourchier

Unlikely name, possible husband for Katherine Willoughby

James V of Scotland (b. 1512) or Francis III of Brittany (b. 1518)

Francis III of Brittany (b. 1518), Hans of Denmark (b. 1518), Sigismund II of Poland (b. 1520)
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Agree with all of these, though a Polish match seems less likely than the rest (not impossible, mind you). There's just less opportunities that an alliance there could bring.

Anyway, assuming Catherine still dies around the time she did in our world, I could see Henry remarrying (though only the once, assuming this new wife doesn't also die). He would probably mourn Catherine for a few years first, as he did with Jane.

Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour are still likely matches in my opinion, as while Henry could probably secure a foreign marraige they wouldn't be too high on the totem pole and he likely would prefer someone he already knows given his inheritance is intact.

This probably results in 3 or 4 more kids at most given the suitors ages, but this is hardly important with 3 sons already in the running.
 
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