Miscellaneous <1900 (Alternate) History Thread

[Mccdtk]

Another question.
What would it do for the Spanish during the Eighty Years' War if Philip II hadn't ordered Alexaneder Farnese to intervene in the War of Three Henrys?
Edit: Also, if there was no War of Three Henrys in the first place, would Henri III accept being sovereign of the Netherlands?

 

[Grey Wolf]

I was debating someone regarding whether or not Ancient Greece/Rome were apart of Western civilization.
IMO they weren't due to having different institutions than that of the West of the last 1000 years.
What're your guys' thoughts?

What is western civilisation without them?

Etruscans? Carthage?

Would be ironic if the latter, since they come from the Phoenicians, of the East

Tarsus, or what we call the Southern Spanish

The rest are Greek colonies - Marseilles, Sicily, Magna Graecia

 

[LibPrime]

What is western civilisation without them?

Well to answer that question, we'd need to ask what is a civilization
My answer to that is a mixture of culture and institutions

The cultures of the Greece/Italy (or at least that of Rome) placed the state as the most important thing. Below that is the clan(Clans can mean anything from clans as a family unit to a polis(not too sure on the last bit)). Finally at the bottom of the tier list comes the individual
If we contrast that with todays West, the culture places the individual as the most important thing, and the state next. As you can see the clan is no where in this equation.
IMO although the legacy of the Romans inspired the modern West in regards to philosophy and the like, I doubt that the Romans are apart of the West

 

[Grey Wolf]

Well to answer that question, we'd need to ask what is a civilization
My answer to that is a mixture of culture and institutions

The cultures of the Greece/Italy (or at least that of Rome) placed the state as the most important thing. Below that is the clan(Clans can mean anything from clans as a family unit to a polis(not too sure on the last bit)). Finally at the bottom of the tier list comes the individual
If we contrast that with todays West, the culture places the individual as the most important thing, and the state next. As you can see the clan is no where in this equation.
IMO although the legacy of the Romans inspired the modern West in regards to philosophy and the like, I doubt that the Romans are apart of the West

This is very confusing. So, there IS NOT WEST then in your thinking at the time of the Romans.

Why, though, is Greece not considered a fore-runner of the West in this analysis? Or at least the democratic Greek states?

What, other than Greek democracy, is the origin of the modern individual-based state? It cannot be considered to be the feudal state, as this is a top-down institution#

People hark to tribal so-called democracy but tribes obviously have the heirarchy even if the taanist might be voted in, in some fashion.

So, unless you discount antecedents completely, you have to look to Greek democracy to some degree as the forerunner of the modern West

 

[Wendell]

What needs to happen to prevent the Third Anglo-Maratha War?

 

[LibPrime]

This is very confusing. So, there IS NOT WEST then in your thinking at the time of the Romans.

Pretty much. IMO the West as we know it arose sometime after the Middle Ages

Why, though, is Greece not considered a fore-runner of the West in this analysis? Or at least the democratic Greek states?

What, other than Greek democracy, is the origin of the modern individual-based state? It cannot be considered to be the feudal state, as this is a top-down institution#

In all honesty I don't know.
I heard a theory about how the modern West's ideas of freedom and liberty were inherited from the culture of the Germanic peoples. I mean after all, how could the highly centralized Diocletian Roman Empire provide a freedom-esque legacy to the West?

I heard another theory that it came as a result of Renaissance/Enlightenment thinkers, and magnified by the Industrial Revolution since it resulted in the rise of the middle class.

 

[Wendell]

What happens if Napoleon III is able to marry Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg? How is his reign different, and is this made easier with a POD of the Affair of the Spanish Marriage going Britain's way?

 

[Arkenfolm]

If we contrast that with todays West, the culture places the individual as the most important thing, and the state next. As you can see the clan is no where in this equation.

Western hyper-individualism is more a product of the 1960s and especially the digital age then anything else, even if it has clear antecedents. People regardless of political view were more collectivist and identified with church, town, region, ethnic group, etc. until the 1950s. Anti-individualistic fascism (centering around nation) and communism (centering around class) have their roots in Enlightenment philosophy as well, as does nationalism in general, or ideologies like syndicalism which center around the trade union rather than the individual.

And this is reflected politically too. It's why democratic societies in the West were more oligarchic than anything and represented competing powerful interest groups rather than directly represented people.

I heard a theory about how the modern West's ideas of freedom and liberty were inherited from the culture of the Germanic peoples. I mean after all, how could the highly centralized Diocletian Roman Empire provide a freedom-esque legacy to the West?

This I can see, but it's clear Ancient Greek democracy and to a degree the Roman Republic also influenced the institutions of the West and what citizens demand from their leaders. It would be strange if it didn't given the huge amount of time Renaissance thinkers spent on it.

 

[LibPrime]

This I can see, but it's clear Ancient Greek democracy and to a degree the Roman Republic also influenced the institutions of the West and what citizens demand from their leaders. It would be strange if it didn't given the huge amount of time Renaissance thinkers spent on it.

Fair analysis

Western hyper-individualism is more a product of the 1960s and especially the digital age then anything else, even if it has clear antecedents. People regardless of political view were more collectivist and identified with church, town, region, ethnic group, etc. until the 1950s.

I do agree that during/after the 60s, we saw individualism take on new heights, but I mean c'mon, at the very least, the Anglo aspects of the West cared heavily for liberty. The English were the first to behead their king, and the US was the first to allow the freedom of speech and the like

 

[Arkenfolm]

I do agree that during/after the 60s, we saw individualism take on new heights, but I mean c'mon, at the very least, the Anglo aspects of the West cared heavily for liberty. The English were the first to behead their king, and the US was the first to allow the freedom of speech and the like

Which can be placed in the context of the creation of the Roman Republic (legendary as it is) or the conflict against the Thirty Tyrants of Athens (or similar conflicts in the Greek world). Or how the narrative of the Greek-Persian wars ended up being oriental depotism against western liberty (although I'm not certain when that current emerged in historiography.

And it wouldn't just be the Anglo world, since rights of nobles vs right of the king was a huge struggle across Western Europe in the Middle Ages, also involving the rights of cities/burghers and the Church's rights vs the king's rights. Or freedom of religion, which could just as much be seen as a church's right to exist compared to the state church as it was an individual's right to choose their faith. One can see as late the 19th century Western nations where those who followed non-state churches faced legal difficulties (i.e. Catholics in Britain), let alone the challenges experienced by non-Christians.

 

[FalconHonour]

WI: Anne Boleyn's other brother Henry (1503-1517) survived? At least long enough to marry and have kids? Would another Boleyn sibling change anything for Anne/Elizabeth?

 

[LibPrime]

Which can be placed in the context of the creation of the Roman Republic (legendary as it is) or the conflict against the Thirty Tyrants of Athens (or similar conflicts in the Greek world). Or how the narrative of the Greek-Persian wars ended up being oriental depotism against western liberty (although I'm not certain when that current emerged in historiography.

When you say that the Greco-Persian wars are in essence freedom vs despotism, it sounds a lot like you're seeing the event through a "liberty lens"
There were a multitude of reasons why the Greeks resisted the Persians. Some saw the treatment of the Ionian Greeks at the hands of the Persians and feared a similar fate. Others simply didn't want to be conquered by an alien force.
Also what kind of Western Liberty did the Greeks believe in? I doubt they wanted to free slaves nor support minority rights

 

[odieluck]

What would Greater Houston’s population be today if it was made the capital rather than Austin in the 1830s?

 

[Arkenfolm]

When you say that the Greco-Persian wars are in essence freedom vs despotism, it sounds a lot like you're seeing the event through a "liberty lens"
There were a multitude of reasons why the Greeks resisted the Persians. Some saw the treatment of the Ionian Greeks at the hands of the Persians and feared a similar fate. Others simply didn't want to be conquered by an alien force.

I'm aware. I was saying that's what the perception of it became, and that's what really matters for the sake of my argument. Later writers when defining the origins of the West traced it to the struggle of the Greek city-states against the Persians, and that's why it's an incredibly common interpretation.

Also what kind of Western Liberty did the Greeks believe in? I doubt they wanted to free slaves nor support minority rights

Neither did most people in the West before the early-mid 1800s, including people associated with liberalism like the Founding Fathers of the US (and it isn't a surprise that the South often looked to Greco-Roman society with its institution of slavery for inspiration). In any case, it doesn't seem right at all to define the traits of Western culture as synonymous with liberalism. Slaveholding and opposition to minority rights are just as much part of the Western tradition, since even as liberalism as an ideology was being formulated, oppression of the Jews and Christian minorities was common in the metropole (let alone the abuses of colonialism) and slave trading and plantation ownership was a huge source of income for people and nations alike.

 

[LibPrime]

In any case, it doesn't seem right at all to define the traits of Western culture as synonymous with liberalism.

Well then what is the West?

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Checking out the Angevin Kingdom thing in Europa Universalis 4 has made me wonder, has anyone tried doing a timeline of something similar, where England seeks to maintain its union with France longterm and even merge the two kingdoms?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

very odd POD: what if the expedition that Edward VI - after talks with former governor, Sebastian Cabot , lately returned to England - to seize Oran had actually materialized? As the lack of this expedition was what jump-started the English expeditions to discover a Northeast Passage and led to the formulation of the Muscovy Company (after Richard Chancellor sailed to Russia)... lets assume that the expedition to hold Oran not only materializes but is successful in conquering the city.

@VVD0D95 @Valena

 

[Mccdtk]

In a scenario where the Novgorod Republic is revived as a Swedish client state during the Russian Troubles, who could be potential Princes?

 

[GigglePuffs]

In a scenario where the Novgorod Republic is revived as a Swedish client state during the Russian Troubles, who could be potential Princes?

It would be really hard to predict, there isn't very much information about notable persons in Novgorod at this time in history. It's equally possible that Sweden could just plop an affluent general or member of the swedish nobility.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

If Anne of Brittany had died before marrying Louis XII who would inherit Brittany? @isabella