Muslim Age of Exploration

[johnreiter]

What if the voyages of Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad, and King Abu Bakr II of Mali had actually happened?

In 889, a merchant from Cordoba named Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad successfully crosses the Atlantic and reaches the Caribbean. He travels from island to island, and eventually reaches the mainland. He buys and sells, and returns to Cordoba with a fortune in Mesoamerican gold, as well as new foods and animals, and stories of the wonders and riches of the the new world. More merchants quickly follow from Morocco and Cordoba, and set up trading posts in the Caribbean and South America

In 1311, King Abu Bakr II of Mali, fascinated by sea travel, decides to reach the east by sailing west. He sets sail with a fleet of ships, and follows the coast of South America southward, until he discovers the Straights of Abu Bakr (OTL Straights of Magellan). He sails across the Pacific ocean (and has much more luck than Magellan, finding many islands on which to resupply) and finally arrives in the Philippines. From there, he makes his way west, following the trade routs of the Muslim merchants of the Indian Ocean. He sails down the coast of Africa, beyond the lands charted by the Sultanate of Oman, and discovers the Cape of Good Hope. Rounding the cape, he returns to the Atlantic, and sails north until he returns to familiar waters and is able to return to Mali. His son, Mansa Musa, is enthralled by his father's tales, and invests heavily in building a large merchant fleet for Mali so the can establish trading posts in South America, Atlantic Africa, and the Pacific Ocean

How would the history of this world be different? What would the new world look like?

 

[Shutenmaru]

Moonlight in a Jar is a very good timeline about Muslim Andalusians discovering the New World. Though it happens in the 1300s instead of 800s.

As for the Malians, I am not sure what the quality of their ships was or if they could even do a circumnavigation of the globe.

 

[johnreiter]

Moonlight in a Jar is a very good timeline about Muslim Andalusians discovering the New World. Though it happens in the 1300s instead of 800s.

Is this a book, or a timeline on this site?

 

[Nivek]

Is this a book, or a timeline on this site?

the latter, check it out here

Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

With thanks to XanXar for rekindling my interest in actually sharing my first honest-to-goodness TL publicly, and more broadly to everyone who's discussed al-Andalus on these forums over the years for leaving behind a massive body of discussion to trawl through over the past several months, and...

www.alternatehistory.com

Warning: The Author hasn't show us the jar with the moonlight inside yet. plus he create a superwanked south france cosplaying as rome from nowhere

 

[Nivek]

Aztec

Aztecs are not an empire yet, and can't recall the pre aztec politics, maybe the mayans but still not big enough as the one will come later on.

 

[johnreiter]

Aztecs are not an empire yet, and can't recall the pre aztec politics, maybe the mayans but still not big enough as the one will come later on.

You're right. That was a silly mistake. I know better. I'll fix it

 

[holycookie]

the latter, check it out here

Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

With thanks to XanXar for rekindling my interest in actually sharing my first honest-to-goodness TL publicly, and more broadly to everyone who's discussed al-Andalus on these forums over the years for leaving behind a massive body of discussion to trawl through over the past several months, and...

www.alternatehistory.com

Warning: The Author hasn't show us the jar with the moonlight inside yet. plus he create a superwanked south france cosplaying as rome from nowhere

It's a good series, but it has some weird things. It has the series in which the rhomane survive . Spain has 4 kingdoms, Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Andalus (which is Islamic). Portugal has a union with Castille, and has a colony that goes from Argentina to the northeast of Brazil. Andalus has a colony that goes from the Brazilian northeast to the beginning of Venezuela. After the conquest of Andalus by Spain, this region remained exclusively for Muslims and Andlus remains Muslim. With the Spaniards being the most tolerant group of Muslims in Europe (the ones who hate Muslims the most are the Romans). The name is an age of miracles

 

[Shutenmaru]

Aztecs are not an empire yet, and can't recall the pre aztec politics, maybe the mayans but still not big enough as the one will come later on.

800s was the post-Teohtihuacan era but before the rise of the Toltec civilization. Groups like the Otomi or the Mixtecs and Zapotecs were ascendant at this time.

It's a good series, but it has some weird things. It has the series in which the rhomane survive . Spain has 4 kingdoms, Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Andalus (which is Islamic). Portugal has a union with Castille, and has a colony that goes from Argentina to the northeast of Brazil. Andalus has a colony that goes from the Brazilian northeast to the beginning of Venezuela. After the conquest of Andalus by Spain, this region remained exclusively for Muslims and Andlus remains Muslim. With the Spaniards being the most tolerant group of Muslims in Europe (the ones who hate Muslims the most are the Romans). The name is an age of miracles
View attachment 753137

wait did we read the same timeline because none of this happened in Moonlight in a Jar

 

[holycookie]

wait did we read the same timeline because none of this happened in Moonlight in a Jar

*another story written in which the romans survive (should have been more specific, sorry)
the rhomane survive . Spain has 4 kingdoms, Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Andalus (which is Islamic). Portugal has a union with Castille, and has a colony that goes from Argentina to the northeast of Brazil. Andalus has a colony that goes from the Brazilian northeast to the beginning of Venezuela. After the conquest of Andalus by Spain, this region remained exclusively for Muslims and Andlus remains Muslim. With the Spaniards being the most tolerant group of Muslims in Europe (the ones who hate Muslims the most are the Romans). The name is an age of miracles

 

[Shutenmaru]

*another story written in which the romans survive (should have been more specific, sorry)
the rhomane survive . Spain has 4 kingdoms, Portugal, Castile, Aragon and Andalus (which is Islamic). Portugal has a union with Castille, and has a colony that goes from Argentina to the northeast of Brazil. Andalus has a colony that goes from the Brazilian northeast to the beginning of Venezuela. After the conquest of Andalus by Spain, this region remained exclusively for Muslims and Andlus remains Muslim. With the Spaniards being the most tolerant group of Muslims in Europe (the ones who hate Muslims the most are the Romans). The name is an age of miracles

Ahh okay my apologies. I misunderstood

 

[AltoRegnant]

I'm working on a TL where morocco is part of the age of exploration, playing a role similar to OTL Portugal to circumvent the catholic latin empire. portugal follows suit, but without the canaries is less effective in Africa. I'm just starting the actual age of exploration part though

 

[EnvarKadri]

How many just entered to thread to shill for Moonlight in a Jar? I did.

 

[EnvarKadri]

the latter, check it out here

Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

With thanks to XanXar for rekindling my interest in actually sharing my first honest-to-goodness TL publicly, and more broadly to everyone who's discussed al-Andalus on these forums over the years for leaving behind a massive body of discussion to trawl through over the past several months, and...

www.alternatehistory.com

Warning: The Author hasn't show us the jar with the moonlight inside yet. plus he create a superwanked south france cosplaying as rome from nowhere

There is 3 entities larping rome right now and there could be a 4th with russia. I am not up to date yet so may already happened.

 

[AltoRegnant]

There is 3 entities larping rome right now and there could be a 4th with russia. I am not up to date yet so may already happened.

are they larping as all of rome or just one half?

 

[johnreiter]

Muslim exploration was very different from European, from what we can see in Africa and southern Asia. Instead of building large colonial empires, they tended to build trading posts, and then trade with native states that converted to Islam. The result of this was that coastal nations would embrace Islam, buy advanced weapons, and use those weapons to invade inland and conquer their non-Muslim neighbors in order to get more goods for trading.

If the merchants from Cordoba, Morocco, and West Africa do the same thing in the Americas, then we would probably see North and South America divided up between various native-born Muslim states.

Of course, I don't see the Europeans standing by and doing nothing. When word spreads of all the gold and silver in the new world, the British and Scandinavian nations will be racing to set up their own colonies, probably in Canada and the east coast of North America

 

[Nivek]

The result of this was that coastal nations would embrace Islam, buy advanced weapons, and use those weapons to invade inland and conquer their non-Muslim neighbors in order to get more goods for trading.

Yeah and the earlier have the advantage that natives will get used to the diseases and those who convert might get some medical care by the Muslim or buying medicine from them too,that changes a lot of things.

I can see Muslim still colonizing islands in the Caribbean for food/trade too

 

[Gloss]

Muslim exploration was very different from European, from what we can see in Africa and southern Asia. Instead of building large colonial empires, they tended to build trading posts, and then trade with native states that converted to Islam. The result of this was that coastal nations would embrace Islam, buy advanced weapons, and use those weapons to invade inland and conquer their non-Muslim neighbors in order to get more goods for trading.

If the merchants from Cordoba, Morocco, and West Africa do the same thing in the Americas, then we would probably see North and South America divided up between various native-born Muslim states.

Of course, I don't see the Europeans standing by and doing nothing. When word spreads of all the gold and silver in the new world, the British and Scandinavian nations will be racing to set up their own colonies, probably in Canada and the east coast of North America

The comparison doesn't make much sense, most Muslim expansion happened over land that was either not exactly open to settler colonialism of any kind, was already densely populated or simply was not the kind of land any given Muslim population would be able to exploit better than the locals.
It's not like the Europeans colonized Africa that territorially before the 19th century, outside of the Portuguese which hardly went much inland anyway.

 

[holycookie]

Muslim exploration was very different from European, from what we can see in Africa and southern Asia.

It is the same as the Portuguese/European until the exploration and division of Africa. i agree with Gloss, the philippines are an example of this, as are macau and goa.

.instead of building large colonial empires, they tended to build trading posts, and then trade with native states that converted to Islam.

they did all three, and so did the Europeans. This has more to do with convenience than anything else. British India vs Mughal India

The result of this was that coastal nations would embrace Islam, buy advanced weapons, and use those weapons to invade inland and conquer their non-Muslim neighbors in order to get more goods for trading.

I think the most likely is a mix of the Spanish with what the Portuguese did.
this will depend on where they arrive if it is in brazil - the caribbean will be an empire similar to the portuguese one. Maybe from Brazil to Argentina. With part of the caribbean. The Aztecs would be hated for making human sacrifices. A conquest of Mexico by Andalus or another European power like France is likely.

If the merchants from Cordoba, Morocco, and West Africa do the same thing in the Americas, then we would probably see North and South America divided up between various native-born Muslim states.

the native groups will be affected by epidemics and then European colonization (I'm counting Andalus as European). Conquest, racism, imperialism are things that are inherently human and not of religions/groups

Of course, I don't see the Europeans standing by and doing nothing. When word spreads of all the gold and silver in the new world, the British and Scandinavian nations will be racing to set up their own colonies, probably in Canada and the east coast of North America

this is from another timeline (a really good one, teh map comes from the rhomanie timeline)
But that would probably be colonialism. With the yellow part being Andalusian, the pink one for the UK (may be more divided competing with the Dutch), the blue one goes to French or a Scandinavian nation (a union of Scandinavian countries).
The red or purple part I don't know. It can be andalus, uk or hollanda. But depending on how the world is , the most martial european group would be france so a conquest of mexico would be likely. The part that could survive is the Inca empire.

Another factor is the fact that Andalus is likely to continue mutazilite with the Umayyads which would indicate a split between the Sunni mutazilite and the Ashari. The Muslims of Andalus did not have the traumas of the Eastern Muslims, which would accentuate the difference even more. So in addition to wars between Catholics and Protestants, we have wars between Mutazilites and Asharis. With Andalus on one side and the Eastern Islamic Empire on the other side. With the other Islamic nations being squeezed between the spheres of both.

the transatlantic slave trade is likely to happen. With the Andalusians having the same opinion as the Abbasids towards blacks. Whereas the opinion of the Zanj shaped part of the opinion of the Portuguese and Spaniards.
The Zanje were black slaves imported from Africa and used mainly in agricultural work as part of the plantation economy of southern Iraq. The demand for menial labor during the period was fueled by wealthy residents of the port city of Basra, which acquired extensive swamps from the surrounding region. These are plantations, but made in the Middle East. so the slave trade unfortunately happens.

 

[holycookie]

Curiosity about andalus:
Andalus under the Umayyad had many links to Hellenistic culture, and except for the Almoravid and Almohadic periods (1086–1212), it was hedonistic and tolerant of homosexuality, indeed one of the times in world history in which sensuality of all sorts has been most openly enjoyed. Important rulers such as Abd al-Rahman III, al-Hakam II, Hisham II, and al-Mu-tamid openly chose boys as sexual partners, and kept catamites. Homosexual prostitution was widespread, and its customers came from higher levels of society than those of heterosexual prostitutes." The verses of Ibn Quzman describe an openly bisexual lifestyle.

Evidence includes the behaviour of rulers, such as Abd al-Rahmn III, Al-Hakam II, Hisham II, and Al Mu'tamid, who openly kept male harems; the memoirs of Abdallah ibn Buluggin, last Zirid king of Granada, makes references to male prostitutes, who charged higher fees and had a higher class of clientele than did their female counterparts: the repeated criticisms of Christians; and especially the abundant poetry. Both pederasty and love between adult males are found. Although homosexual practices were never officially condoned, prohibitions against them were rarely enforced, and usually there was not even a pretense of doing so." Male homosexual relations allowed nonprocreative sexual practices and were not seen as a form of identity. Very little is known about the homosexual behaviour of women

Source :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Homosexuality_and_pederasty

 

[holycookie]

Regarding diplomacy: Andalus had a good relationship with the Maghreb nations. In Europe, the nation had a good relationship with England, and with the rest of Europe it was lukewarm.

this map is my opinion on what andalusians are going to try do in europe.

Yellow: would be iberia (has to be conquered as a whole to have safer borders)

Red:Raid made by the Ottomans reached Iceland. With Andalusia so close, there will be many raids in Europe. The region that will likely be focused on to satiate the Andalus court will likely be the ones in the red, Ireland/Scotland and perhaps Norway and maybe the Netherlands. The reason these regions are the focus outside france is due to Andalus preference for very white women with colored hair (red, blonde, etc). France will depend on the relationship of the two countries

Green: they are necessary for better control of the Mediterranean and are relatively easy to conquer (Sicily being the most difficult) This would not only give better control of the Mediterranean, but more security against the other islamic empire.

blue: is a possible conquest that can occur if the opportunity arises. But it won't expand more than that so as not to antagonize the pope and the HRE

Light blue: Maghreb region, influence will likely be through economics, politics, religion; Seeking buffer states against any invasion like the Fatimid Caliphate. Basically, when a power gets close to Iberia, it will be exhausted and therefore it won't have the strength to conquer or even threaten the nation.

with the central focus of the nation being:
the new World. the coast of africa (behind ivory, gold and slaves) and direct access to india/china.