Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
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It's already unlikely once the policy of Chinese openness continues into the 18th century — far enough into it so as for their coastal and riverine cities to get into the winds of the Scientific & Industrial Revolutions.
By then, everything that Korea can do, all their neighbours can do better.
Their isolationism will be much more similar to the one that Switzerland had after their heydays as mercenaries in the Renaissance period.
Or more like, it can be the Korean military — especially the ones directly commandeered by the nobility as independent forces — fighting not for geopolitical interests but for contract.
I can see their services being mainly used in North Asia. It's still going to be rather large-scale beyond being palace guards, especially given their close proximity to the peninsula itself.
Down south into Southeast Asia however, I think those are going be more sporadic ventures more dependent on Chinese and Indochinese patronage than their roots in the Korean society — something as an alternative and an opposition to the extant Japanese-descended mercenaries that are already there.
This is going to be a question for the 18th century, I guess.
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The Joseon are fucked. The instability this will cause will shatter their power beyond the peninsula. Looks like we have a decisive Japanese victory after all and here I was getting disappointed Japan wouldn't even get Jeju after their assault failed.
Also the poor queen. Given she and the king were sleeping in the same bed which is quite rare for royal couples it seems to indicate they actually had care and affection for each other and she watched him get murdered in front of her. Given the emphasis OP gave on the exact timing on when the queen blacked out and that she witnessed it all, I think he's setting this up to destroy the queen's mental state and have her breakdown from grief and depression and madness, rendering her unfit as regent and fucking over Joseon some more.
Also the poor queen. Given she and the king were sleeping in the same bed which is quite rare for royal couples it seems to indicate they actually had care and affection for each other and she watched him get murdered in front of her. Given the emphasis OP gave on the exact timing on when the queen blacked out and that she witnessed it all, I think he's setting this up to destroy the queen's mental state and have her breakdown from grief and depression and madness, rendering her unfit as regent and fucking over Joseon some more.
He did but its power and influence has been seriously diminished by the war and the Ming embargo. Gyeongseon also obviously had the support of the military.
Very quotable statement here.
The Joseon military could also easily come up with the mantra that 'we would have won the war if only we were not stabbed in the back by the scheming nobles'. The Joseon military conducted themselves very impressively against Japan, fighting them to essentially a draw.
I could easily see them deciding that the Confucian nobility has to go, and initiate a Civil War in response. So Joseon could end up a system similar to Japan's- a puppet Emperor where real power is concentrated in the hands of a military strongman.
I could easily see them deciding that the Confucian nobility has to go, and initiate a Civil War in response. So Joseon could end up a system similar to Japan's- a puppet Emperor where real power is concentrated in the hands of a military strongman.
Chapter 110: Asiatic Northern War Part IX - Yongwu’s Peace
Chapter 110: Asiatic Northern War Part IX - Yongwu’s Peace
Immediately after the assassination of King Gyeongseong, a regency council took over governing affairs in Hanseong led by the elderly and conservative Song Si-yeol. He and the others focused on two main tasks: enthroning the 9 year old crown prince and determining whether to remain involved in the ongoing conflict. The bureaucrats who now held the reins of power were already decidedly skeptical of the continuation of the war and now faced with a destabilized state of affairs at the top, decided to pursue a peace. They would not only send diplomats to the other participating powers but also to Beijing as they hoped Emperor Yongwu could help craft a settlement as a third party and heavenly ordained sovereign. Shortly after this decision, the enthronement ceremony for King Sukjong took place, his mother Myeongseong becoming the Queen Dowager of the peninsular realm. The queen, however, would be traumatized for life by her husband’s assassination and thus would play a limited role in the early years of her son’s reign.
Initially, Gyeongseon’s death was kept a secret as the regency council wanted to avoid spreading panic amongst the military and especially the general population, only spread via the diplomats. As a result, the stage was set for one final battle between Amur-Japanese and Jin-Joseon forces in the north. Gutai, who had reformed his forces after the Battle of Alchuka Plains, sought to take advantage of Shin Ryu’s victory at Girin and made a major push towards both Nurgan and Alchuka Hoton. Leading a Jin-Joseon army of 24,000, he made a push towards Nurgan while Shin Ryu marched onto the latter city and began besieging it. To confront him was Kaga Nagaaki’s army, numbering 20,000 bolstered by 5,000 of Tokugawa Tomoyasu’s reinforcements who had recently landed on the mainland. The two armies would cross paths at Yabuli [1] on August 9th. In this instance, the army facing Gutai was infantry-heavy as it was nearly completely composed of Japanese troops. Despite possessing superior firepower, the large disadvantage in cavalry forced Nagaaki to widen his infantry line, positioning yari ashigaru on the flanks to deter cavalry charges. Gutai would similarly widen his center through a mix of swordsmen, musketeers, and heavy Joseon cavalry in response to the Japanese formation. Cavalry made the wings as usual. In the battle that followed, Japanese musketeers swiftly decimated the Jin-Joseon infantry and although they were pressed by cavalry on the wings, the latter too were repulsed. This allowed them to assist the Amur-Japanese cavalry, which was at the brink of being overwhelmed by the enemy, and soon Gutai’s army was once again in full retreat. This time, the latter had lost 5,000 men whereas Nagaaki’s army had suffered only a few hundred casualties. The Amur-Japanese victory at Yabuli subsequently forced Shin Ryu to withdraw from his siege of Alchuka Hoton.
Initially, Gyeongseon’s death was kept a secret as the regency council wanted to avoid spreading panic amongst the military and especially the general population, only spread via the diplomats. As a result, the stage was set for one final battle between Amur-Japanese and Jin-Joseon forces in the north. Gutai, who had reformed his forces after the Battle of Alchuka Plains, sought to take advantage of Shin Ryu’s victory at Girin and made a major push towards both Nurgan and Alchuka Hoton. Leading a Jin-Joseon army of 24,000, he made a push towards Nurgan while Shin Ryu marched onto the latter city and began besieging it. To confront him was Kaga Nagaaki’s army, numbering 20,000 bolstered by 5,000 of Tokugawa Tomoyasu’s reinforcements who had recently landed on the mainland. The two armies would cross paths at Yabuli [1] on August 9th. In this instance, the army facing Gutai was infantry-heavy as it was nearly completely composed of Japanese troops. Despite possessing superior firepower, the large disadvantage in cavalry forced Nagaaki to widen his infantry line, positioning yari ashigaru on the flanks to deter cavalry charges. Gutai would similarly widen his center through a mix of swordsmen, musketeers, and heavy Joseon cavalry in response to the Japanese formation. Cavalry made the wings as usual. In the battle that followed, Japanese musketeers swiftly decimated the Jin-Joseon infantry and although they were pressed by cavalry on the wings, the latter too were repulsed. This allowed them to assist the Amur-Japanese cavalry, which was at the brink of being overwhelmed by the enemy, and soon Gutai’s army was once again in full retreat. This time, the latter had lost 5,000 men whereas Nagaaki’s army had suffered only a few hundred casualties. The Amur-Japanese victory at Yabuli subsequently forced Shin Ryu to withdraw from his siege of Alchuka Hoton.
Salmon = Japanese, Green = Amur Jurchen, Blue = Joseon, Brown = Jin Jurchen
Soon enough, however, the death of Joseon’s king would reach everyone and the war would begin to subside as neither side sought major engagements during peace deliberations though sporadic fighting continued. Back in the various capitals of the four other parties, different reactions arose from Hanseong’s overture. Ming emperor Yongwu eagerly anticipated the prospect of peace and even offered to lead the peace negotiations. Gutai reluctantly went along, though it is said that he felt betrayed by Joseon. In Azuchi, meanwhile, a heated discussion followed in the Sangi-shu and then the Shinka-in with some advocating for the continuation of the war in the hopes of gaining a total victory over the enemy. However, most were swayed by the pro-peace arguments of councilors like Kanbe Tomozane and Mōri Tsugumoto, and in any case news of Beijing’s involvement ended the debate. As for Bahai, khan of the Amur Jurchens, he too hesitated but did eventually buckle under the pressure of his senior chieftains and accepted both Joseon’s and Ming China’s offers.
The peace negotiations would be hosted by Ming China in the northern city of Shenyang and mediated by the emperor’s own representatives. After a few months, the details were hammered out and in what would be known as the Treaty of Shenyang, the Amur Khanate ceded some lands in the northern steppes to the Lesser Jin but otherwise the status quo from before the war was maintained in terms of territory and borders. Amur-Japanese occupied Alchuka Hoton and Haishenwei as well as the surrounding areas would be returned to the Lesser Jin. Additionally, all four involved powers were mandated to renew their oaths of nominal submission to Emperor Yongwu and send tribute within 1669. All of Joseon’s troops would also evacuate the Lesser Jin and occupied parts of the Amur Khanate upon the signing of the peace. Finally, Beijing would back an expedition to retake Russian-occupied Albazin for the Amur Khanate. Representatives of Japan, Joseon, and the Amur Khanate accepted the conditions of the peace, with a stubborn Gutai reluctantly signing on after a few days of Joseon’s representatives reassuring their continued support and pressuring him to accept the conditions.The treaty officially came into effect on February 9th, 1669, ending the Asiatic Northern War.
Salmon = Japan, Blue = Joseon, Citrus = Ming China, Lime = Northern Yuan, Peach = Lesser Jin, Brown = Amur Khanate, Purple = Russia
With the conclusion of the war, it became clear that the biggest winner was Ming China, which had not spared a single expense towards the war for any side. Instead, it had taken advantage of its position as the “heavenly mandated” hegemon as well as its sheer wealth and power and acted as the main arbiter between the other parties. The Treaty of Shenyang would be the opening act to Beijing’s new “Yongwu Doctrine”, an assertive diplomacy that combined Confucian notions of regional hierarchy and the emperor’s realpolitik that ensured continuous Chinese power and hegemony. This new diplomacy would witness Joseon and the two Jurchen khanates align their affairs more closely with Beijing after the war. On the other hand, Joseon emerged from the war divided and weakened, its economy ruined from the exertions of war and the Ming embargo and its stability shattered by the late king’s assassination. The regency council that governed for the 9 year old Sukjong would subsequently pursue a more isolationist foreign policy more adherent to Sinophile interests among the Confucian scholar bureaucracy. Quietly watching the developments disapprovingly from the sidelines, however, were many of the military leaders that had led Joseon’s men during the war and contributed to many of its victories. This cadre included both Shin Ryu and Yi San-seon.
Both khanates can be viewed as having had positive outcomes coming out of the war. Despite the failure of the Lesser Jin to secure further territorial gains, Gutai had conducted himself impressively during the course of the war and could’ve taken over the entirety of the Amur Khanate if not for the timely intervention of the Japanese. The destabilization and perceived unreliability of his primary backer in Joseon, however, would push Gutai towards pursuing a more independent foreign policy for his realm. Although he would pursue closer relations with Beijing, the khan would strive to forge a new path for his realm and the Aisin Gioro clan in general. On the other hand, the Amur Khanate had survived an invasion that could’ve easily wiped out the realm completely, Sahaliyan’s son Bahai tested in the darkest of moments. Nevertheless, the unchanged precarity of the khanate between Russia, the Lesser Jin, and the Northern Yuan would in turn push Bahai deeper into Japan’s orbit as a permanent Japanese presence would be maintained at Kuromatsu Castle and at the port of Kuroryutsu. Both khanates had also experienced the devastating effects of war, from a sap in manpower to the ravaging of swaths of farmland and steppe, and would focus on their respective recoveries.
Then there was Japan. Only a few years after the Manji War, the realm had jumped straight into the Asiatic Northern War, landing tens of thousands of men onto the Asiatic mainland and launching countless fleets against Joseon. The war’s end saw a Japan exhausted from nearly a decade of nonstop military action at home and abroad and like Joseon weakened by the Ming embargo though to a lesser extent. Nevertheless, Amur-Japanese relations emerged from the war stronger than ever and Azuchi had solidified Japanese power and influence in the far north for good. A few thousand Japanese troops would stay behind while the rest, including the major generals, would return to the home island over the course of 1668-1669. As they returned home, Azuchi would begin to confront the issues caused by its involvement in the war.
[1]: Jurchen name for OTL’s Yabulizhen.
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Being in between four or five powers? Yeah, I don't think the Jin are going to last much longer.
Hopefully when the boy-king gets strong enough.
Tbf I don't think Joseon is out just yet, even though it has lost the most out of the players in the region and losing its alliance with the Jin is definitely not worth it when they got nothing out of it.
Considering the modernisation of the army and institutions tho (probably somewhere between Japan and China) Joseon would definitely be already much stronger than otl. I could see some militarists going for a coup and attacking the Jin in hopes they could directly rule the region and colonise it much like what the Japanese are doing with Beiritou and further afield.
I do think the Ming would slowly lose their vigor post Yongwu, since bad emperors are inevitable in any dynasty, and having the two good emperors side by side is actually quite anomalous for the late Ming. Since all the borders are calm, I think China will eventually fall into complacency that doomed them in otl.
The Japanese also didn't gain much from this, but the fact that they would be able to finally stop fighting war after war would be good for them. Considering their colonies like Luzon and Beiritou tho I think the Japanese would move towards naval affairs since the major source of conflict they'd face would be from European ships. They should also aim to prevent any major group in Manchuria from gaining predominance, and continue exploring the east for sea otter pelts.
I think Japan would be quite well predisposed to move towards American and SEA colonisation. They're already doing so in Beiritou and Hokkaido, and further movements of people from the overpopulated valleys to colonies overseas would be encouraged. I don't think we'd see anything like mass migrations happen until the mid 18th century tho, where better lands are discovered and the seas are charted well enough for such apparatus to happen.
Having just finish reading TL it is honestly one of the most amazing I have seen so far, I am intrigued as to how things will develop from here on out, I personally think that the maritime power path is the most obvious one for Japan to follow but regardless whatever you choose this is one of my favorite TL.
Yuan = Green Ming = Yellow Jin = that third color? It'd be better if it was e.g. blue or red, something clearly different from the other two...
Korea may take a liking in puppetising Chinese warlords in a cutthroat diplomacy as revenge for this war and the assassination of their king.
Eh, still late enough for traders to get greedy and set up trading routes and fur outposts (messing with the Spanish monopoly is just icing on the cake). They'll definitely get further than Russia did.
In fairness, Yongwu’s father Emperor Titian was around for 6 years and really didn’t accomplish much other than maintaining the status quo and putting down a revolt. The thing with the Ming is that with Zhenchun they were able to weather the specific events that led to the downfall of the Ming IOTL. And then you had two competent emperors who reaped the rewards of surviving the early 17th century. Also helps that Hongguang and Titian were kinda middle aged when they took the throne (37, 40) and not super young.
Yongwu’s gonna be around for a while (he’s still 25 in 1669) tho so there’s plenty of time for him to eventually become a bad emperor if he does.
Thank you!! I appreciate the support!!
Japan is kinda red, Joseon is blue, so there’s that. I’ll try something like a pink or a cobalt next time if it matches.
Yeah I think we'll start seeing Alaskan way stations by the end of the 17th century, and Japan could probably claim all of the mainland they found before they meet the Americans moving westwards lol. Mss movements of ppl/settler colonialism is quite different than building trade networks.
If we get to that point in the TL ye. A severely weakened china would be very useful to both Joseon and Japan, as Japan would attempt to colonise the south coast by establishing pro Japanese warlords there too.
Especially if the Ming fall earlier like in the 1800s, and we see Japan and co carve out their own spheres of warlords that allow these Chinese states to develop beyond the imperial system.
Hmm that's true, I just think the Chinese success is temporary considering the various emperor's involved, and that eventually they would fall off as most of the court favoured isolationism, and would slowly cut off their understanding of the modern world until they just stagnated and fell apart from their own hubris. I think I'm overestimating how quickly it would occur tho.