Portuguese Canary Islands: Method and implications?

[TheWitheredStriker]

The idea of the Canary Islands being taken not by Spain/Castile but rather by the good ol' Portuguese bois has been floating around in my mind as of lately, especially as it seems that the Portuguese had a vested interest in them (and also discovered them outright).

I've looked at this thread before and it posits some interesting means to get this done, like de Bettencourt seeking funding from Portugal instead of Castile or a more successful Henry the Navigator. Which method could most plausibly make the islands Portuguese?

And perhaps more importantly: would the Spanish colonization of the Americas be impacted? I believe that the Spaniards used the Canaries as a stopover en route to their colonies. Northern Spain still seemed to be in contact with the New World, so part of me thinks Spain might end up in the Americas regardless of whether it does or doesn't control the Canaries. But I figured it could never hurt to check.

 

[Phalamus]

The first Portuguese expedition to the canaries was in 1341. I think that if the kingdom had been more stable during the mid-14th century it might have been possible to follow up on that and jumpstart the age of discovery some 70 years earlier.

Here's an old thread of mine on the issue: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-earlier-portuguese-discoveries.496856/

 

[ezpz]

The first Portuguese expedition to the canaries was in 1341. I think that if the kingdom had been more stable during the mid-14th century it might have been possible to follow up on that and jumpstart the age of discovery some 70 years earlier.

Here's an old thread of mine on the issue: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-earlier-portuguese-discoveries.496856/

Portugal wanted to conquer Ceuta in 1182, if Portugal actually won the battle, Portugual Empire would start 300 years earliar during the Reconquista.

 

[ramones1986]

Extended version of Madeira.

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

The first Portuguese expedition to the canaries was in 1341. I think that if the kingdom had been more stable during the mid-14th century it might have been possible to follow up on that and jumpstart the age of discovery some 70 years earlier.

Here's an old thread of mine on the issue: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-earlier-portuguese-discoveries.496856/

Thank you for the recommendation! I will be sure to check out your work.

Out of curiosity, was there any particular calamity/bad event that stopped Portugal from following up on its discovery?

 

[Phalamus]

Thank you for the recommendation! I will be sure to check out your work.

Out of curiosity, was there any particular calamity/bad event that stopped Portugal from following up on its discovery?

A war with Castile followed by a civil war between Afonso IV and his son Pedro I

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

I see!

Supposing that Portugal does get the Canaries, what could the effects of this be? Would the Spanish colonization of the Americas be impacted?

 

[Cryptic]

Supposing that Portugal does get the Canaries, what could the effects of this be? Would the Spanish colonization of the Americas be impacted?

Columbus used the Canaries as his "jumping off point" to the New World.

By 1492, the existence of a large land mass (es) to the west had been deeply suspected by those "in the know" for generations. People "in the know" included Canary islanders, English and possibly Basque long range fishing crews, west coast Irish villagers and monks, Icelandic now civilized Norse and a variety of scholars, some of the monastic sort, others secular. Thus, Columbus' journey was more of "confirmation" than "discovery" per se.

I imagine that authorities in the Portuguese Canaries could refuse to support Spanish confirmation voyages. Rather, they could order any Spanish ships with the intention of sailing west be seized and their crews put in prison. The Portuguese then make the first solid New World landfall in centuries....

 

[TheWitheredStriker]

So basically, so Spanish colonization of the Americas?

 

[Cryptic]

So basically, so Spanish colonization of the Americas?

Continues, but with conflict and tension with Portugal. Sure, the Portuguese got there first and claimed a number of areas- at least on paper-right? Spain is also in a geographically advantageous location for New World voyages, is militarily confident, very confident, after the victory over the Moors. Spain also has more resources than Portugal.

Spain has no intention of honoring Portuguese claims- at least those not backed by a decent sized Portuguese physical presence. in the immediate area. Queen Isabella of an increasingly unified Spain is called the "La Catolica" for a reason. Can that lead to any papal resolutions regarding claims to tilt towards the Spanish pov?

First Spanish step is to get reconnaissance / claim missions sailing west as soon as possible. With 20/20 hindsight, the Spanish realize that they should have relieved Portugal of the Canary Islands burden earlier. The Spanish then ask themselves a series of questions:

- Are the Canary Islands truly needed as a jumping off point for New World missions? If so, should they move on the Canary Islands now? If not, what is the most advantageous alternate routes to get "there"?

Going beyond the Canaries....

If the Portuguese get obstinate and dont want to share the New World with their fellow Catholic Iberians, Spain could ask the profound question of: "What exactly is mainland Portugal to begin with?"

Followed by a line of logical thought( logical from the Spanish pov): Some people need a big brother. The Irish have one in England. Norway has a big brother in Denmark. Should Spain serve as big brother to Portugal? New world competition would be.... solved.

 

[Taunay]

Continues, but with conflict and tension with Portugal. Sure, the Portuguese got there first and claimed a number of areas- at least on paper-right? Spain is also in a geographically advantageous location for New World voyages, is militarily confident, very confident, after the victory over the Moors. Spain also has more resources than Portugal.

Spain has no intention of honoring Portuguese claims- at least those not backed by a decent sized Portuguese physical presence. in the immediate area. Queen Isabella of an increasingly unified Spain is called the "La Catolica" for a reason. Can that lead to any papal resolutions regarding claims to tilt towards the Spanish pov?

First Spanish step is to get reconnaissance / claim missions sailing west as soon as possible. With 20/20 hindsight, the Spanish realize that they should have relieved Portugal of the Canary Islands burden earlier. The Spanish then ask themselves a series of questions:

- Are the Canary Islands truly needed as a jumping off point for New World missions? If so, should they move on the Canary Islands now? If not, what is the most advantageous alternate routes to get "there"?

Going beyond the Canaries....

If the Portuguese get obstinate and dont want to share the New World with their fellow Catholic Iberians, Spain could ask the profound question of: "What exactly is mainland Portugal to begin with?"

Followed by a line of logical thought( logical from the Spanish pov): Some people need a big brother. The Irish have one in England. Norway has a big brother in Denmark. Should Spain serve as big brother to Portugal? New world competition would be.... solved.

There are many problems with this argument, IMO.

1) Spanish unification may not even happen depending on the POD, which means that the Iberian Peninsula will have a more fair balance of power

2) Isabella of Castile may also not even be born. Or, even if she is born, with the extra revenue due to the Canary Islands, Portugal would help to defeat her in the War of Castilian Succession

3) Portugal would have a bigger demographic advantage compared to IOTL, as the few Portuguese settlers in the islands will multiply within generations, meaning that Castile (which will also NOT have the islands) wouldn't be as powerful as in our world

4) The extra revenue from the increased trade due to the possession of the Canary Islands may make Portuguese financers sounder than Castile's, and would help Portugal in coming wars against the other Iberian kingdoms (or depending on how the TL goes, we may see an alliance of Portugal and Aragon against the expansionist Castile)

 

[Cryptic]

There are many problems with this argument, IMO.

1) Spanish unification may not even happen depending on the POD, which means that the Iberian Peninsula will have a more fair balance of power

3) Portugal would have a bigger demographic advantage compared to IOTL, as the few Portuguese settlers in the islands will multiply within generations, meaning that Castile (which will also NOT have the islands) wouldn't be as powerful as in our world

A Portuguese Canary Islands would be the same as a Spanish Canary Islands until the big discovery (isolated back water out post with an indigenous population not exactly supportive of mainland settlement- but having little to stop it with).

Likewise, Portuguese in the Canaries does not mean that they get a significantly early start on New World claims, wealth and economic development. There was no monopoly on the New World, and the conditions needed for the conquest did not arrive in Europe until about 1492:

- Growing belief that there was something out there, and that the something was worth travelling to.
- Enough ship technology to ensure that the survival rate of ships going to, and ships coming back would be sustainable- at least for the most part.
- Enough navigation technology to get to the good stuff- and back, consistently.

In short, Portugal would need to wait until about 1492 before launching. As there was no copyright on launches, and Spain already viewed Portugal as a friendly rival, once Portugal launched, Spain would follow very fast with a launch of their own. Portugal was not going to be allowed to build a huge exploration / claim / wealth extraction advantage.

 

[Aluma]

Portugal wanted to conquer Ceuta in 1182, if Portugal actually won the battle, Portugual Empire would start 300 years earliar during the Reconquista.

Thats a interesting point
Could you tell me what battle was that tho? I tried to find on the wiki but all I got was this

• September 14 – Legend of Nazaré: Dom Fuas Roupinho, alcalde of Porto de Mós, is inspired by a Marian miracle to erect the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Nazaré overlooking Nazaré, Portugal. Later this year while trying to enter the harbor of Ceuta by surprise to sink Muslim ships he is spotted and killed.[10]

• 1180: The Portuguese Navy defeats a Muslim fleet off the coast of Cape Espichel.

• The Portuguese admiral D. Fuas Roupinho wins a second victory in two years, against the Almohad fleet.[2]

• After a series of defeats, the Almohad fleet under the admiral Ahmad al-Siqilli, crushes the Portuguese navy and reasserts its control over the Atlantic Ocean.[2]

• September 14 – Legend of Nazaré: Dom Fuas Roupinho, alcalde of Porto de Mós, is inspired by a Marian miracle to erect the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Nazaré overlooking Nazaré, Portugal. Later this year while trying to enter the harbor of Ceuta by surprise to sink Muslim ships he is spotted and killed.[2]

• Summer – Almohad forces reconquer the Alentejo (except for Évora), and besiege Lisbon on land and blockade the port with their navy. A Portuguese soldier manages to swim to the largest ship of the fleet and to sink it. This ship was so tall, it would have allowed the Muslims easily to reach the walls of the city. The next day, the Almohads have to retreat, taking with them a number of civilian captives.[2]
• Siege of Santarém: Almohad forces under Caliph Abu Yaqub Yusuf march towards Badajoz and besiege Santarém, which is defended by King Afonso I of Portugal ("the Conqueror"). Upon hearing of Abu Yusuf's attack, Ferdinand II of León marches his army to Santarém to support his father-in-law, Afonso. Abu Yusuf, in an attempt to break the siege, is wounded by a crossbow bolt and dies on July 29.

Its all very interesting but none of it point out there was a big battle Portugal could have won that would have allowed them to keep Ceuta and start expanding over Africa to create their Empire ahead of schedule

If anything the Almohads were crushing them very consistently in what consisted of mostly naval skirmishes, save for their siege of Alentejo, Lisbon and Santarém where if Yusuf had been more lucky he might have killed both Afonso & Ferdinand while taking the cities, which would have been a huge blow against the Reconquista, but instead he got hit by a random arrow lmao

 

[ezpz]

Thats a interesting point
Could you tell me what battle was that tho? I tried to find on the wiki but all I got was this






Its all very interesting but none of it point out there was a big battle Portugal could have won that would have allowed them to keep Ceuta and start expanding over Africa to create their Empire ahead of schedule

If anything the Almohads were crushing them very consistently in what consisted of mostly naval skirmishes, save for their siege of Alentejo, Lisbon and Santarém where if Yusuf had been more lucky he might have killed both Afonso & Ferdinand while taking the cities, which would have been a huge blow against the Reconquista, but instead he got hit by a random arrow lmao

In 1180 he didnt reach Ceuta, but in 1182 he almost reached Ceuta, Fuas Roupinho wanted to take the Port, but he died in 1182. and Almohads are literally about to collapse.

I think its a bit wrong to say Almohads were winning huge in Portugal, they only managed to reconquer land, but not conquer ANY Further, and Afonso Henriques won alot of battles against them DESPITE being outnumbered, even tho he had help from Crusaders. if Fuas Roupinho was alive there would definitly be a chance for a early Portuguese Empire, Alot of Muslim rathered live in a Christian Kingdom then the Almohads during that time. The Ummuyads were the best muslim rulers in iberia.



Also I doubt they would make a expedition to Portugal, if Portugal conquered Ceuta in 1183, the 1190 expedition probably wouldnt exist, cause if Portugal won Portugal would get hagemony and would get a good part of the navy of the Almohads, which could benefit for upgrade on the Portuguese Navy

which would definitly acerelate the Portuguese Empire, I dont think you know this but Portugal in the 1400s got some ideas from the Berber Navy, continuing to capture Muslim Fleets would definitly accerlate the Portuguese Empire.

Almohads would have a difficult time even touching iberia, as Portugal would control the Mediteratean, and Almohads cant REALLY rely on the Manpower on Andalusia, ((they can)) but it wont benefit much,



But this is a story for another timeline since we are talking about 1300s.

 

[Aluma]

they only managed to reconquer land

Thats what I meant, the portuguese still lost land that they had to take back, they werent expanding

and Afonso Henriques won alot of battles against them DESPITE being outnumbered

That is true, but like you said he was on the backfoot since he was outnumbered and had to call for help from Leon and even then both he and the King of Leon could have died in that siege, being lucky that it was Yusuf who did instead
That is not to the discredit of the portuguese, they did well and resisted despite the odds, they just werent winning

1180 he didnt reach Ceuta, but in 1182 he almost reached Ceuta, Fuas Roupinho wanted to take the Port, but he died in 1182

In both cases his invasion atempt were repelled pretty badly so I wouldnt say he wanting to take it would have brought better results

and Almohads are literally about to collapse.

That is true, but we only know that from hindsight and it happened after Yusuf died which further destabilized them, when Fuas(which I found little about, as sources about him are either chronicles or passed down through oral traditions) died facing his navy which led to the siege that killed the Caliph

If Fuas wins the siege is butterflied away as Yusuf's focus would be on reconquering Ceuta rather than pressing on, which considering how outnumbered Fuas was when he fought them(20 vs 54) means he wouldnt have many forces left to defend the city from them, meaning he most likely dies trying to keep it and the situation returns to the status quo
if anything I think that would be a portuguese screw since the almohads would be collapsing at a later date(though still likely soon) and they would have lost even more troops trying to retain Ceuta, but at least Santarém wouldnt be sieged

there would definitly be a chance for a early Portuguese Empire.

Im not saying this is Impossible, but I think its a tough call to start empire building this early when the situation was so bad for them that they lost Lisbon and almost lost their monarch as well
Again, I think Portugal falling to the Almohads is more likely than the opposite

 

[ezpz]

Thats what I meant, the portuguese still lost land that they had to take back, they werent expanding

That is true, but like you said he was on the backfoot since he was outnumbered and had to call for help from Leon and even then both he and the King of Leon could have died in that siege, being lucky that it was Yusuf who did instead
That is not to the discredit of the portuguese, they did well and resisted despite the odds, they just werent winning

In both cases his invasion atempt were repelled pretty badly so I wouldnt say he wanting to take it would have brought better results

That is true, but we only know that from hindsight and it happened after Yusuf died which further destabilized them, when Fuas(which I found little about, as sources about him are either chronicles or passed down through oral traditions) died facing his navy which led to the siege that killed the Caliph

If Fuas wins the siege is butterflied away as Yusuf's focus would be on reconquering Ceuta rather than pressing on, which considering how outnumbered Fuas was when he fought them(20 vs 54) means he wouldnt have many forces left to defend the city from them, meaning he most likely dies trying to keep it and the situation returns to the status quo
if anything I think that would be a portuguese screw since the almohads would be collapsing at a later date(though still likely soon) and they would have lost even more troops trying to retain Ceuta, but at least Santarém wouldnt be sieged

Im not saying this is Impossible, but I think its a tough call to start empire building this early when the situation was so bad for them that they lost Lisbon and almost lost their monarch as well
Again, I think Portugal falling to the Almohads is more likely than the opposite

When did the Almohads conquer Lisbon 💀 Almohads didnt even reconquer Almoravid land in Iberia,



What? Almohads got carried by Leon in 1169, if it wasnt for that Portugal wouldve literally have reached Sevile💀

Fuas Roupinho lost in the battle in 1182 IN 1182, NOT IN 1180 OR 1184 which you keep mentioning, cause of a storm. which killed him Fuas Roupinho defeated them in 1180 and in 1182 he tried to capture the port.

if Yusuf doesnt die, that means his son wouldnt seek Revenge for Portugal, and would be not that focused on PORTUGAL atleast in iberia, but also focused on the oceans,
if Portugal wins the battle, Portugal would TRY To capture more cities in Morocco aswell, like in the 1400s BUT NOT AS MUCH tho. but I can see them trying a few attempts unfournatly, and Exploration might be alot sooner, Portugal would also get a bunch of information in Africa, making Portugal also more interested in Africa, as a secondary goal to the Reconquista, it is possible for Portugal to reach Ghana soon aswell, making Portugal richer on fighting Morocco and giving a better Position.

Portugal could just block Yusuf from entering Andalus, since who controls Ceuta, controls the strait of Gibraltar, its that simple, after a victory capturing the Almohad Navy aswell, SO YUSUF Maingoal is the reconquer Ceuta, but the moment Ceuta is reconquered (Or not) The Iberian Kingdoms are already invading andalusia.

 

[Aluma]

When did the Almohads conquer Lisbon 💀

They besieged both Lisbon & Santarém and the city was practically lost to the portuguese before the leonese intervention, and thats after Afonso took them from the Almohads in the first place so they indeed had conquered it before

What? Almohads got carried by Leon in 1169, if it wasnt for that Portugal wouldve literally have reached Sevile💀

That sounds like just portuguese hype without basis, Leon didnt carry Portugal so much Portugal tried to assert its independence at same time they tried ro fight the Almohads

1184

1184 is the year he died, thats all

lost in the battle in 1182

Again, which one? He fought more than one like I quoted
But regardless of which they all took place before Santarém so this is irrelevant

and would be not that focused on PORTUGAL atleast in iberia, but also focused on the oceans

Depends entirely if he succeeded at capturing/killing Afonso or not, but if we say not that is exactly my point - he'd focus on stabilizing his realm rather than Portugal, in which case the almohads fall later and if the portuguese captured Ceuta they'd likely lose it as retaking that would be part of this reestabilization

if Portugal wins the battle, Portugal would TRY To capture more cities in Morocco aswell

They might try, but they would be overstretched as it is, keeping Ceuta alone is unlikely considering they were consistently outnumbered as per your own words and IOTL they failed to take it precisely because of that, trying to obtain more would only mean spreading their forces further which is recipe for defeat

, it is possible for Portugal to reach Ghana soon aswell,

I dunno, in OTL a much more advanced Portugal took 56 years to reach Ghana and 67 to build the first port there after conquering Ghana
That doesnt seem much because IOTL that was pretty fast all things considered, but 300, years earlier? It might take as long as a century

Portugal could just block Yusuf from entering Andalus, since who controls Ceuta, controls the strait of Gibraltar, its that simple

And Portugal barely had ships to take Ceuta, again it was 20 vs 54, let alone keep it AND expand on Gibraltar
Its that simple

But this is a story for another timeline since we are talking about 1300s.

But fair enough we are getting offtopic and I dont think either of us can convince the other, so if its fine for you lets agree to disagree

 

[ezpz]

They besieged both Lisbon & Santarém and the city was practically lost to the portuguese before the leonese intervention, and thats after Afonso took them from the Almohads in the first place so they indeed had conquered it before

That sounds like just portuguese hype without basis, Leon didnt carry Portugal so much Portugal tried to assert its independence at same time they tried ro fight the Almohads

1184 is the year he died, thats all

Again, which one? He fought more than one like I quoted
But regardless of which they all took place before Santarém so this is irrelevant

Depends entirely if he succeeded at capturing/killing Afonso or not, but if we say not that is exactly my point - he'd focus on stabilizing his realm rather than Portugal, in which case the almohads fall later and if the portuguese captured Ceuta they'd likely lose it as retaking that would be part of this reestabilization

They might try, but they would be overstretched as it is, keeping Ceuta alone is unlikely considering they were consistently outnumbered as per your own words and IOTL they failed to take it precisely because of that, trying to obtain more would only mean spreading their forces further which is recipe for defeat

I dunno, in OTL a much more advanced Portugal took 56 years to reach Ghana and 67 to build the first port there after conquering Ghana
That doesnt seem much because IOTL that was pretty fast all things considered, but 300, years earlier? It might take as long as a century

And Portugal barely had ships to take Ceuta, again it was 20 vs 54, let alone keep it AND expand on Gibraltar
Its that simple

But fair enough we are getting offtopic and I dont think either of us can convince the other, so if its fine for you lets agree to disagree

Why would it matter if Afonso dies, like he already established his status, and had a heir, he was predicted to die anytime soon anyway, Country would be in tears but it wouldnt be anywhere close like Yusuf Dying in OTL or Sebastian.

They had 20 ships in 1180, in 1182 they had 60 ships, but they lost 20 to Almohads, so they would have 40 Ships. and Almohads 50 - 45, so its possible.


I mean Portugal defeated Almohads while having 20 ships vs 22 almohad ships,
so why cant Portugal do Magic again? its that simple.

I mean but what about the pope how would he react to this, obviously he would provide Portugal more aid,

 

[Aluma]

They had 20 ships in 1180, in 1182 they had 60 ships, but they lost 20 to Almohads, so they would have 40 Ships. and Almohads 50 - 45, so its possible.


I mean Portugal defeated Almohads while having 20 ships vs 22 almohad ships,

Yeah thats more feasible
The numbers the wiki gave me made the gap look a lot wider

 

[Taunay]

Yeah thats more feasible
The numbers the wiki gave me made the gap look a lot wider

Guess we all learned that Wikipedia can't always be trusted...

Back on topic, an earlier Age of Discovery triggering earlier globalization could result in a world where technology is decades ahead of OTL