Republic of New Netherlands

johnreiter

Banned
I've been speculating for a long time on a timeline where the Dutch colony of New Netherlands becomes a great power, and a potential analog to the OTL United States of America. I've finally nerved myself up to commit these ideas to a post, and see what people think about it.

1665-1667
In the Second Anglo-Dutch War, the Dutch government takes a chance and provides Peter Stuyvesant with the support he needs to defend the colony from the English. As a result, the Dutch are not forced to give up either of their colonies at the Treaty of Breda

1672-1674
In the Third Anglo-Dutch War, the English try and fail to capture the colony of New Netherlands. After this, the Dutch and the English will be at peace for a hundred years, so the colony is now safe. The Dutch continue their policy of encouraging immigration to their colony from all over Europe

1680s
Two events strongly impact New Netherlands. First, Louis XIV of France revokes the Edict of Nantes, and begins persecuting the Huguenots. ITTL, many thousands of the these French protestants settle in the New Netherlands. Later, William Penn is unable to secure a land grant from the King of England. As a result, the English Quakers settle in New Netherlands instead. The influx of all these settlers leads to a massive population boom in New Netherlands, and the formation of a large merchant middle-class.

1688-1697
The greater population of New Netherlands leads to a greater push for more land westward. In the Nine Years War, the Dutch are able to crush the Iroquois, and push westward into the Ohio Valley

Early 18th century
The presence of New Netherlands sharpens the divide between New England and the southern colonies (Maryland, Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia). There is little shared sentiment that they are all "Americans"

1770s
New England and the Southern colonies revolt against Great Britain. These are separate rebellions, not directly connected to each other. New Netherlands supports the rebellions, due to many shared concerns. In response to the Dutch support of the New England rebellion, the British invade and capture the Ohio river valley. This inspires lasting resentment among the New Netherlanders. In the end, New England is conquered by the British, but the southern colonies gain their independence, and form the Confederate States of America, using James Madison's Virginia Plan.

1795
The population of New Netherlands has been growing increasingly restive about the lack of independence in their colony, which is still run from the Netherlands. However, rather than resort to violence, they choose to bide their time and wait for the events which will inevitably lead to their independence. The opportunity presents itself when France conquers the Netherlands and proclaims the Batavian Republic. The colony of New Netherlands quickly declares that they do not recognize the Batavian Republic, but decline to recognize the Dutch government in exile either. During the Napoleonic wars, the New Netherlanders take advantage of the confusion abroad to declare themselves the Republic of New Netherlands, draft a constitution, and put their house in order.

What do people think so far?
 
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H.Flashman(VC)

H.Flashman(VC)

johnreiter said:
The Seven Years War happens virtually the same as OTL, since the Dutch are allies of the English against the French.
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The Dutch Republic kept itself out of that war. They were a participant in the Austrian war of succession, which brought a regime change in the Republic.
I actually could see the Dutch colony revolting at the moment the English ones aren't a thread anymore. The Dutch navy proved to be quite ineffective in the Revolutionary war and the Republic was in turmoil because of strong internal divisions. The 80's are a perfect time for a revolution. Maybe a revolt started by patriots fleeing for the Prussian invasion of 1787.
 
Umbric Man

Umbric Man

SealTheRealDeal said:
Not too sold on the name, what about "the Hudson Republic" or something of the sort?
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SealTheRealDeal said:
Hudson Free State?
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It has zero basis in reality but I always liked the name "Republic of Manhattan" since the heartland of New Netherlands was the island and New Amsterdam/*NYC didn't cover the entire island for a while to make the city core and island's names synonyms. A parallel example is Mexico from Valley, City, and State giving it to the nation.
 

johnreiter

Banned
H.Flashman(VC) said:
The Dutch Republic kept itself out of that war. They were a participant in the Austrian war of succession, which brought a regime change in the Republic.
I actually could see the Dutch colony revolting at the moment the English ones aren't a thread anymore. The Dutch navy proved to be quite ineffective in the Revolutionary war and the Republic was in turmoil because of strong internal divisions. The 80's are a perfect time for a revolution. Maybe a revolt started by patriots fleeing for the Prussian invasion of 1787.
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Thank you for the input. I will consider it and make appropriate changes.

I had New Netherlands get their independence later and more peacefully, since the Dutch never allowed their colonies as much independence in the first place as the British did.
 

Jürgen

The reason I was going with Hudsonland is because the the Dutch had a tendency they shared with other continental Germanics to simply put -land or more rarely -staat (state behind a states name). We can see this with the Bishopric of Munster, which the Dutch called Munsterland or we can see it with the state of the Teutonic Order which the Germans called Deutscheordensstaat and the Dutch called Duitse Ordestaat. This is to make its short form distinct from the thing it’s named after. So if you as example names a state after a river or other geographic feature you simply put a land behind it. So If you name it after Manhattan instead of calling it the Republic of Manhattan, you call it the Republic of Manhattanland. This of course makes the name look clumsy in English, but it create a clear short form meaning. Of course if the meaning is already clear you don’t do this extra step.
 

MrHappy

Lalli said:
Has New Netherlands any chances to become great power since it has not New England nor Southern States?
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The OTL US is a world power because it has soooo much land, people, resources, etc. New Netherlands seemingly has (or will only have) one-third of the land, people, resources, etc. Absent some subsequent merging of the non-Dutch areas into New Netherlands, it seems destined to be less of an analog and more of a OTL US Mini-me.

As for this Hudsonland talk, I understand the point regarding Dutch naming practices, but wouldn't the Dutch opt for a Dutch creation. "Hudson" is so, well, English-sounding. Besides, I believe that the Dutch called the river "Noord River."
 

Lalli

Me too bit doubt that the country would be named as Hudsoland. The river was namer after English sailor so Dutch population hardly want give English name to their nation. Not impossible but still unlikely.

Perhaps the country could be named after first president/important New Dutch politician of the nation like Bolivia was named after Simón Bolívar.
 

johnreiter

Banned
While I think on the naming issue, I have a question I need help with.

I'm assuming that the British will annex Louisiana, since Napoleon did not sell it ITTL. It is essential for my timeline that Louisiana is divided between the Confederate States of America and the Republic of New Netherlands.

I need a plausible reason why the RNN would ally with the CSA in this timeline's version of the War of 1812.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
FYI, it is New Netherland. No s on the end.

You've got some other wars to get through well before you get to the French Revolution, which very well might get butterflied. There's the War of Spanish Succession, which was the Dutch Republic's last hurrah as a great power. With the dutch pitted against France, there's an opportunity for NN to grab some Canadian territory. Montreal is small. If you're looking to wank NN, I'd expand in that direction, and grab the great lakes region. The Haudenosaunee claimed much/most of the southern part of the great lakes and the Ohio River valley. So did Virginia, so there's going to be conflict there. IF NN can snag Montreal, they control what became the French presence in the great lakes/canada region.

You can't simply do a one liner of '7YW goes as OTL'. The French and Indian War portion of that war was a MAJOR event for the continent. Arguably, the biggest event to date, aside from the founding(s) of the colonies. the war started over Ohio, which was claimed by France and Britain. It ended with France being tossed off the continent, for the most part. If you go with my suggestion of NN taking some of the French portion of New France/Canada, it'll be NN and Britain fighting for it, and NN will lose. France won't concern itself with the conflict. I would guess NN would be more willing to settle things diplomatically, but if you amp up the wank, and pour the horde of settlers into Ohio while Britain is busy in the War of Austrian Succession, NN might gain it simply by possession. This same mass settlement could happen if you don't use the 'NN expands into Canada' thing. If you simply go the French and Indian War starts as OTL, the conduct of the war will go differently. NN is going to take an interest in the war and will side with whomever promises the biggest piece of the pie.

NN within the confines of OTL Dutch territorial claim, does not have the resources to be a Great World Power. The Pennsylvania portion has coal and iron. There are various mineral resources all over, but not enough to be a major industry on a world scale. If you're going to wank, I'd go north and west. There's lots of minerals in that direction.

A problem with this wank is that you're bringing in a HUGE population immigration in a very short time. What sort of cohesive culture is going to form?

The American Revolution is going to be much different. French involvement may be different. First you have to establish what the 7YW looks like and resulted in. If France doesn't go crazy on spending during this event, the French Revolution may not happen.

A sleepy minor regional power, slowly growing, and managing to somehow navigate its way through the perils of the 18th century, would make for a reasonably believable story.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
MrHappy said:
And that's the rub. The Dutch Republic simply lacked the population to stock NN contrasted with the UK in OTL.
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much of the migration to New York was from non-British sources. This is a main difference between British colonies and others, like France and Spain. F/S had strict guidelines, whereas the English/British had a more open policy. I don't know the policy of the Dutch, but in TTL, if they have a more open policy, New Netherlands can attract a steady flow. Logistics means you can't dump too many at once. A steadily increasing stream is what is best. Unfortunately, NN needs a quick influx to get a core population able to take advantage of the early days when the continent is being divvied up, and to avoid being divvied up themselves. IF a large percentage of your population is foreign born, and non-dutch, there's going to be an identity crisis. The US had huge influx, but also had a core identity when that happened. The Dutch in NY held on to their identity for many generations, but they were eventually swamped and assimilated. With the Dutch remaining in charge, there'll be more of a Dutch identity for longer, but eventually NN won't be Dutch any more if too much migration is from non Dutch sources. If NN wants to remain Dutch, it is going to be a long, slow growth, and that means at best they survive being taken over, and remain stable.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
I forgot another opportunity - the Nine Year War. Again, Dutch was at war with France, and Montreal was vulnerable.

And, there's the Franco-Dutch War in the 1670s, but that will be much too early in the TTL to realistically make a move, not to mention that the Dutch were a hair away from being completely wiped out as a power.
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

unprincipled peter said:
much of the migration to New York was from non-British sources. This is a main difference between British colonies and others, like France and Spain. F/S had strict guidelines, whereas the English/British had a more open policy. I don't know the policy of the Dutch, but in TTL, if they have a more open policy, New Netherlands can attract a steady flow. Logistics means you can't dump too many at once. A steadily increasing stream is what is best. Unfortunately, NN needs a quick influx to get a core population able to take advantage of the early days when the continent is being divvied up, and to avoid being divvied up themselves. IF a large percentage of your population is foreign born, and non-dutch, there's going to be an identity crisis. The US had huge influx, but also had a core identity when that happened. The Dutch in NY held on to their identity for many generations, but they were eventually swamped and assimilated. With the Dutch remaining in charge, there'll be more of a Dutch identity for longer, but eventually NN won't be Dutch any more if too much migration is from non Dutch sources. If NN wants to remain Dutch, it is going to be a long, slow growth, and that means at best they survive being taken over, and remain stable.
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In OTL, the Dutch had a very open policy in encouraging emigration from other nations besides just the Netherland. Large numbers of colonists to New Amsterdam came from the German states as well as Britain. Of course, the existence of the colony was rather short in OTL - and given over a century of growth and more immigration from the Netherlands, I suspect that the colony would be rather Dutchified by the time of proposed independence (especially as the Dutch will form the ruling class of the colony). However, the multicultural and commercial nature of the colony would likely lead to a very distinct local indentity before long.

What will be interesting, I think, is if the Patroon system continues strongly post-independence and if this creates a division between the city of New Amsterdam and the hinterlands.
 

funnyhat

In the Third Anglo-Dutch War, the English try and fail to capture the colony of New Netherlands. After this, the Dutch and the English will be at peace for a hundred years, so the colony is now safe.
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This is a very questionable assumption. The continued existence of NN will cause major butterflies. It will complicate a rapprochement between England and the Dutch republic. The English were not happy to have their North American colonies divided geographically, and would view NN as a commercial competitor, at a minimum. There will probably be border tensions between NN, the neighboring English colonies, and local native tribes.

North American history (to say nothing of European history) will be different. For instance, I think it's unlikely the Quakers would still end up moving to the OTL Pennsylvania lands if they are under Dutch control. They will probably go somewhere else under English rule, or perhaps not leave England at all (and instead, Quakerism remains a significant movement there).
 
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unprincipled peter

Donor
funnyhat said:
This is a very questionable assumption. The continued existence of NN will cause major butterflies. It will complicate a rapprochement between England and the Dutch republic. The English were not happy to have their North American colonies divided geographically, and would view NN as a commercial competitor, at a minimum.
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What are the major butterflies you envision? Third Anglo-Dutch War ended in 1674. Glorious Revolution is in '88. IF we posit that the GR occurs as OTL, England/Britain and Dutch Republic are sort of in personal union under William. I don't see anything obvious which would derail GR. Once William dies in '02, Britain and Dutch are at war with France for another decade. British and Dutch share a strong concern of keeping France away from the low country. This would trump a desire to take over New Netherland. It isn't critical to join the British colonies geographically.

IF NN follows my dream of adding part of New France, this will certainly scare Britain. And, there'll be friction over the Ohio Valley. I still have doubts that this will upset the cause of keeping France out of the low country. Unless NN enriches Dutch Republic enough to maintain the Dutch as a real power, Britain may see the Dutch as washed up and useless as an ally and decide to turn on them. OTL, fear of getting the maritime powers involved was a real factor in French policy. In TTL, maintaining that fear will be a real factor for Britain to consider.

Curious as you what you prophecy for how this TTL twists and turns if we accept as a given that NN is capable of making it to, say, 1680 as a Dutch colony capable of at least moderate ability to resist being taken over.
 
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