Cool thead. I'll read it. Together we will make our pwn story after that
Revived HRE after Congress of Vienna --> Großdeutschland
- Thread starter Bookinator23
- Start date
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) on this site we need to list the specific point of divergence or people don't really follow the thread idea. Also, it makes a difference how exactly it happens. Saying everything goes right is vague.
Though I will say that the convention of the German states in 1848 could have gone somewhere.
And no one is stopping you from making a map.
Ok. I will start with that. I'll read me in history and come up with a map we can discuss. Maybe in a new thread, maybe in this one. Tomorrow I will make an update
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) on this site we need to list the specific point of divergence or people don't really follow the thread idea. Also, it makes a difference how exactly it happens. Saying everything goes right is vague.
Though I will say that the convention of the German states in 1848 could have gone somewhere.
And no one is stopping you from making a map.
If I remember correctly, the revolutionaries at a time gained more leverage over the Habsburgs than the Hohenzollerns. Perhaps your POD could center around that. If you want Friedrich Wilhelm IV to become constitutional monarch, that could require an earlier POD to make him more willing to do so. Also consider the butterflies that could spread to other countries. Note that different events in Europe will have an effect on the USA, because it will mean different waves of migration. What that means for American foreign policy is up to you, but eventually butterflies that flutter to the USA will have an effect on Germany if you take it into the 20th century.
Then I'm going to put the pod in FWivs childhood, where he learns of the ideals of democracy and in his adulesence he is a full blown democrat but doesn't want to abolish the mornachy. So he supports the revolution and becomes King/Kaiser
Accepting a degree of constitutionalism and enfranchisement (probably only outside Prussia proper) in exchange for becoming German emperor and guaranteeing the security of your kingdom from a rival dynasty is a pretty good trade. A truly smart and realpolitik/machiavellian Hohenzollern would have seen the opportunity of 1848 for what it was even if there were some drawbacks. Especially since Austria was distracted fighting for the integrity of its own empire and France was likewise distracted, so there was a pretty clear run. Even Wilhelm I presided over Reich with universal male franchise after all.
All that would have to be done afterwards is to consolidate it and protect it, maybe hope that Cisleithania falls into your hands.
FW may have called it a crown from the gutter, but as has been noted extensively the Assembly and the unification movement existed at the sufferance of Prussia. If he'd been more ready to seize the moment, maybe he would be saying ( apologies to Napoleon) "I saw the crown of Francis lying in the gutter and I scooped it up with Prussian bayonets". Indeed I've never understood how he had such reservations about the precise provenance of the movement that was seeking him as its leader. Even if he didn't like revolution it would be so easy to spin the moment as a natural political realignment of German speaking peoples and to get the Princes to oblige. Maybe with wylier advisors around him, the whole affair could be sold to him as a reconstitution of the HRE project in all but name?
All that would have to be done afterwards is to consolidate it and protect it, maybe hope that Cisleithania falls into your hands.
FW may have called it a crown from the gutter, but as has been noted extensively the Assembly and the unification movement existed at the sufferance of Prussia. If he'd been more ready to seize the moment, maybe he would be saying ( apologies to Napoleon) "I saw the crown of Francis lying in the gutter and I scooped it up with Prussian bayonets". Indeed I've never understood how he had such reservations about the precise provenance of the movement that was seeking him as its leader. Even if he didn't like revolution it would be so easy to spin the moment as a natural political realignment of German speaking peoples and to get the Princes to oblige. Maybe with wylier advisors around him, the whole affair could be sold to him as a reconstitution of the HRE project in all but name?
Very good idea. The question in this scenario is: With or without hungary. Also generally. Just the territory of the german conf. or all of prussia and austria? Proposals are welcome. As soon as we get those basics done, i'll make a new prototype map
Haven't thought of something like that but that's a plausible timeline. So do you mean that the Frankfurter Reich doesn't contain Austria but after some war or diplomacy they get integrated? Or should I do like failed expansionism of the Österreich so that the Austrians are weak and can be annexed later?
I do have a crazy, and possibly ASB idea, in which the HRE was just restored in the Congress of Vienna (although, it has the borders of German Confederation, and changes to elections, allowing Protestant royals a chance, so it’s just the German Confederation all in but Name and Titles). So when the Revolutions of 1848, the Habsburg Emperor abdicates the title of Holy Roman Emperor, the remaining Prince-Electors decides on electing some other house to the throne, either a Wittlesbach or a Hohenzollern, and which slowly over the course of decades, leads to more centralization
Still, it’s an outlandish, ASB idea
Still, it’s an outlandish, ASB idea
This is a crazy idea! Could try that. How about I make a google doc and we write the events organized in one spreadsheet. Btw what does ASB mean?
So, here's the google doc:
docs.google.com
Alternative Congress of Vienna
docs.google.com
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While I love your enthusiasm, I’ve learn from this site, one can’t just put a pod, and expect everyone to accept it just happened. You got to describe the event, the details of negotiations, war, reactions. You got to make it complex and convincing.
Also, ASB means alien space bats, which on this site, means so “crazy that’s it impossible”
I know. I thought of an interesting project together. I'm not the best writer, but we can achieve something great. I know this Thread is likely to die but I hope not. Let's begin with the overall picture, then the details.
So I made a new thread discussing alternative versions of the congress of Vienna. Maybe we will get a good story out of there.
Alternate Congress of Vienna
Alternate Congress of Vienna
Except for the things which could not. 😂
In 1848, as before and after, Finland was an autonomous princedom joined to Russia by a personal union but having its own government. So “independence” does not make too much sense. Breaking the union would require something fundamental like Russian Revolution. Uprising in Finland circa 1848 could not succeed because it was demonstrated on the numerous occasions starting from the GNW that, even as the “second front”, Finland can not successfully resist Russian invasion (even when backed by Sweden).
Even if somehow the union is broken, scenario under which Finland manages to occupy the Russian capital and Estonia and get away with it belongs to ASB category.
To the same category belongs change of the title for the Russian monarch, which, BTW, was “an emperor” (“Tsar” was unofficial title with a purely historical value and, in a full title reference to the specific tsardoms within the empire). “King” would be pretty much meaningless and what is the motivation?
Independent Poland in 1848 is cute but rather fantastic.
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