Romans cross the Atlantic - A Sketch

Romans cross the Atlantic - A Sketch

Some time around 100 AD +/- 100 years.
A cohort is returning to the Continent from Britain, and travels on a small fleet of commercial craft (Veneti type ships, I imagine). The ships are primarily carrying product and tribute from Britain, so are loaded with grain and livestock, with the legionaries basically along as supercargo.

On board the 'flag ship' is a senior Roman official, returning home (possibly the senior tribune, possibly a civilian). He has his prize stallion and a couple of riding mares, a large library and a Greek slave as clerk who's fluent in multiple languages.

As the small fleet sets out, they are hit by a storm which blows them west. Several ships are lost (including the flagship - that was a red herring), but 2 keep within sight of each other and land near the Chesapeake Bay.

The Romans land, hauling their damaged ships ashore, and immediately erect a palisaded encampment, as was Roman army practice.
While they want to return home, a) the ships are rather damaged, and b) they really have little idea WHERE home is.

On board the ships were - several tonnes of grain (wheat and barley, say), some bags of peas, 10-15 head of cattle (all cows), and a flock of sheep (including a ram), a load of tin, and some iron.

That spring, they are attacked by the warriors of the tribe whose land they have taken. Since the Romans are soldiers, with armour and steel weapons, the warriors are defeated, mostly killed, some taken as slaves. Then the Romans go raid the native encampment and seize all the women and children there.

By hunting, gathering seafood, fishing and eking out the grain, the Romans survive the spring and summer. The legionaries who used to be British and Gaullish farmers complain that they joined the Legion to escape farming. But at least, they're now overseers of slaves and their un-skilled fellow soldiers.

Note that this early in history, the Eastern Woodlands culture of natives that they've encountered don't have maize yet, and are largely seasonal hunter gardeners, rather than settled agriculturalists. So the Romans with their fortified camp, full-fledged agriculture, and metallurgy are very impressive. Thus Roman culture and language have prestige.

Later in the spring, the vanquished tribe's local enemies (let's call these the Powhattan) try to make a raid - but find the usual encampment deserted. They make contact with the Romans, and establish good relations. Once they discover the usefulness of iron tools, they are overjoyed to trade all the food they can possibly harvest (initially deer and seafood) for iron tools. An ax head gets the chief's daughter as a wife for the Centurion, a knife buys a few female slaves the Powhattan capture from other tribes.

By the next winter, Nova Roma is thriving. Latin is the language of the town, but it has some of the edges worn off, as the original Romans were a motley lot of Britons, Gauls, and Italians with a couple of Greeks, Syrians and Illyrians. The slaves speak another language among themselves, and the Powhattan speak a third. So the language of intercommunication is a Latin that is quickly becoming more like OTL's Italian - or Romanian (except with Algonkian and Iroquoian loan words, not Slavic and Hungarian).

The sailors, being sailors and not shipwrights, are not able to rebuild the ocean going ships, much to everyone's disappointment. But they can build small fishing vessels, much better than the canoes the locals had used, and small coastal sailing vessels to go up and down the coast, trading and exploring. The Romans need access to iron ore, copper, preferably silver and lead. Gold would be nice, but they never find any (until long enough passes they don't know it's the mythical 'aurum' of their ancestors.)

That second spring, two of the cows end up pregnant, by a wandering young bison bull. One of the resulting calves is a bull calf, who in the coming years is bred to all the remaining cows. Obviously, there are minor fertility issues, and large attitude issues - it takes decades for the Romans to breed out the aggressive qualities introduced by the bison admixture. The sheep flock also expands rapidly, but the few horses and pigs don't have males to breed with, and so die out.

The Powhattan, with their new Roman iron tools, grow and spread into their neighbours' lands, increasing by natural growth, by better agricultural, and by adopting captured slaves. This despite the fact that many of their young people end up settling down by the Romans and adopting Roman ways.


Roman population size doubles every generation for the next centuries. While they have lost much of their tech, they still have draft animals and agriculture, palisades, iron tools, and organized military, and armour. This means that as they slowly expand, they are able to take the land they 'need' for their growing population.

As with Old Rome, New Rome doesn't start out expanding on purpose. But as they and their allies are attacked, they attack back, usually win, and take that land. Also, over the next decade, they establish colonia up and down the coast, often in spots of strategic interest, e.g. mine sites, or good trading posts.

By the time two hundred years have passed, the entire coast is using 'Latin' as a lingua franca, and Latin language and culture are the prestige. Local chiefs feel they have to have at least some Latin, and often send their sons to Nova Roma for education (OK, and as hostages).

Every once in a while, an adventurous expedition sets off in the most seaworthy vessels available at the time to head back east to the fabled Old Rome. But nothing is heard back, most being lost at sea.

While the locals eventually catch up to the Romans in terms of technology, the Romans still have an edge in organization and army structure. So New Rome ends up being the major power on the eastern seaboard, but not the only one.


Eventually, of course, contact is renewed between the old world and the new, although by this time, the Western Empire has collapsed (or at least is collapsing) and nothing much comes of it for a few hundred years. Except that the Pope sends missionaries across to convert these New Romans. And the New Romans are able to introduce maize, squash and beans to Europe, while receiving in exchange those domestic animals and crop plants that didn't make the crossing.


Note that the 'Latin' spoken after a couple of hundred years will be strange beast. Most of the seafaring terms are likely to be Gaullish, most of the words for New World animals and certainly plants will likely local in origin, and the language as a whole will be creolized, with declensions breaking down, and genders still being still CALLED masculine feminine and neuter, but masculine and feminine will be really distinguished only for pronouns and some animals, and neuter will become the native 'inanimate' gender. But the basic vocabulary and grammar will remain directly and visibly descended from Vulgar Latin (which was already creolizing a little).
 
Issues, as I see them: the Venetii were destroyed as a people around 57BC. We never hear of their ships again. They may have been stouter than the Roman ships of the time, but don't imagine them as being suited for blue water sailing.

A historical ship, say, the Mayflower, taking a route similar to what you propose was a starship compared to the kinds of ships available for your purpose in your timeframe. Not only immensely stronger but with far more sophisticated rigging to allow sailing much more close-hauled (as close as you can sail into the wind) in a variety of wind conditions than any classic age vessel -- really a prerequisite for your route) It took the Mayflower 3 months, and that was with an experienced blue water crew who knew where they were going and still ended up with most of the passengers in a weak state.

I'm not sure you could get a storm blowing people from the English Channel westwards across the North Atlantic. Prevailing winds and currents and the storm directions I'm familiar with would push the hapless sailers Northward more than Westwards. Iceland might be a more likely landfall. Possibly, if given enough time and luck (?!!), Labrador. More probably, neither. The great storms (often remnants of Atlantic hurricanes) blow completely in the wrong direction, NE trending.

ORapril1992b.gif


Any Roman ship accidentally making landfall in the New World, is much more likely going to come out of a scenario where a ship coasting along NW Africa is (for whatever plausible reasons) steered by the Canary current and prevailing winds to Brazil.

Here's a thought: Given the Northern European Clinker-built ship tradition (beginning as early as the 2nd C present Era, perhaps one can get pro to-Norse to Iceland and eventually N. America earlier than their descendants did. Just a thought. Points if there is interaction between these early Northmen and the Romans in Britain. Perhaps the Romans get turned on to both different ship-building methods and knowledge of the existence of a Western continent.

Still have to create a compelling motivation for the Romans to do anything about it, though....
 
Last edited:
The Veneti were wiped out, as you say. But surely others had similar ships, even if not quite as good.

As for the winds. Certainly, it would be a rare storm that blew west like that, but such things do happen, I understand, just rarely. There's a reason it didn't happen iOTL, I don't think there's a reason why it couldn't iTTL. We're talking 1% chance at best, imo, low, but not ASB.

As for ship handling. I'm supposing that, at least for most of the storm, they are sailing straight downwind, keeping their stern to the oncoming waves. So they don't need to sail close to the wind or have fancy navigating. Note, too, that I'm supposing a cohort is crossing the Channel - and only a century or so makes it to the New World. So 80% loss en route. And the two ships likely have men from two different centuries.

I'm not supposing that we've got professional blacksmiths or miners or such on board - more, someone who apprenticed briefly before going into the Legion, or whose dad was that, and they had a clue. Similarly, none of the sailors are shipwrights - but many, many people in a sea-side town can knock together a dinghy or small sail boat - which is what I envision for the first couple of years. Having seen ships built, and a decade of experimentation should get them something rather bigger, even if not to the size or quality of the original ships.

As for the Romans 'doing anything about it', I'm not supposing re-contact until say 500 years have passed, and that, initiated from the New World side. By that point there are going to be better ships for the Atlantic, ones that have at least a 50% chance of surviving a trip one way. I can't see a Pope NOT sending a missionary bishop or two off, on the hopes of converting these new people.
 
Venetii-like ships? Not in the historical record.

Sorry. As I see it, I'm afraid the likelihood is of a Roman Roanoke, not a Jamestown. That's even after getting the Romans to N.America in the 1st place by a means I find extremely unlikely.

And from the other Rome Crossing Atlantic thread:
How long did it take for them to cross? (assuming the winds and currents cooperated...not particularly likely).

With some iron and a cargo of tin...Where did they get all that iron to trade with the Proto-Powhattan? Did they bring miners with them as well? I'm not aware of iron deposits in the Chesapeake Bay area, although there may be some. If I was a vastly outnumbered shipwrecked party in a strange land with locals of questionable intentions...I don't think I would be giving away anything as valuable and force balancing as iron...it would be more valuable than gold to me because of what it can be turned into.

Why did they have the cattle, sheep and pigs? The journey across the Channel is pretty short and I believe The Empire did not have a shortage of livestock, so would they really be importing them from Britain?

The African misadventure mentioned by Herzen in your thread is far more likely to create the result you are looking for (look at the currents and winds). It could even get you to a landing in Florida if the butterflies flap their wings hard enough...but you still need a reason for the Romans to by sailing down the African coast.
 
Last edited:
Some time around 100 AD +/- 100 years.
A cohort is returning to the Continent from Britain, and travels on a small fleet of commercial craft (Veneti type ships, I imagine). The ships are primarily carrying product and tribute from Britain, so are loaded with grain and livestock, with the legionaries basically along as supercargo.

On board the 'flag ship' is a senior Roman official, returning home (possibly the senior tribune, possibly a civilian). He has his prize stallion and a couple of riding mares, a large library and a Greek slave as clerk who's fluent in multiple languages.

As the small fleet sets out, they are hit by a storm which blows them west. Several ships are lost (including the flagship - that was a red herring), but 2 keep within sight of each other and land near the Chesapeake Bay.
You just have to explain ONE thing.
Water.
Commercial ships just expecting to cross the channel probably won´t carry enough water for the crew, Roman legionaries and farm animals to survive weeks crossing the Atlantic Ocean?
 
You just have to explain ONE thing.
Water.
Commercial ships just expecting to cross the channel probably won´t carry enough water for the crew, Roman legionaries and farm animals to survive weeks crossing the Atlantic Ocean?
it's a storm
1) the crossing is faster
2) there's probably enough water coming down as rain that they can survive
 
it's a storm
1) the crossing is faster
2) there's probably enough water coming down as rain that they can survive

1) A storm powerful enough to substantially accelerate the crossing is going to tear the boats to pieces, especially ancient era boats. During the age of exploration, powerful but short lived storms wrecked many a boat. Chances of an ancient boat surviving a storm long lived and powerful enough to dramatically shorten the crossing is zero.

2) People scrambling like mad to keep their boats from coming apart or sinking under wildly bucking seas are not going to be collecting water. In an environment like that, every loose object will either be shattered or washed overboard... and that includes crew members.
 
Romans cross the Atlantic - A Sketch

Some time around 100 AD +/- 100 years.
A cohort is returning to the Continent from Britain, and travels on a small fleet of commercial craft (Veneti type ships, I imagine). The ships are primarily carrying product and tribute from Britain, so are loaded with grain and livestock, with the legionaries basically along as supercargo.

Was grain and livestock a significant export from Britain? I believe that Egypt was the granary of the Empire, and for a number of reasons. It was long established, extremely productive, long growing season, fertile soil, well established shipping routes and relatively short distances.

What were the exports of Roman Britain, how much, and where did they go?


As the small fleet sets out, they are hit by a storm which blows them west. Several ships are lost (including the flagship - that was a red herring), but 2 keep within sight of each other and land near the Chesapeake Bay.

But they wouldn't be venturing into deep water would they? They'd probably cross the channel and hug the coast all the way down to Gibralter. If a storm came up, they'd head for the nearest port.

Distance to Chesapeake Bay, by the way, would be between 3000 and 3500 miles. How fast do you see them getting over there?


On board the ships were - several tonnes of grain (wheat and barley, say), some bags of peas, 10-15 head of cattle (all cows), and a flock of sheep (including a ram), a load of tin, and some iron.

All cows and no bull means one generation. Again, I'm curious as to the likelihood of Britain being a significant exporter of grain. It doesn't seem economic.
 
it's a storm
1) the crossing is faster
2) there's probably enough water coming down as rain that they can survive

Additionally, if the storm is contradicting the entire climatological pattern of Earth (including, I believe the Coriolis effect and thereby flaunting the laws of Physics) and moving consistently in a generally westward direction at this latitude and for a sufficient length of time to drive a ship, which probably has the hydrodynamic characteristics of a bathtub, all the way across the Atlantic against the forces of the Gulf Stream (which has an eastwards flow of 5.6 mph on average) etc, to land on the east coast of the Americas, the sea state, wind driven waves trying to go west vs a strong eastward current, is going to be worse than it was during "The Perfect Storm". The ancient ship, which was probably designed for the relatively light duty of crossing the channel, will be drift wood before a few days have gone by.

A crossing between the British Isles and the East Coast at, lets say, 6 knots, would take about a month. That is a pretty good speed for a reasonably modern cruising sailboat, which this is not. You have to assume that there are abundant barnacles on the bottom, which will slow it down considerably. Additionally, if the storm is as strong as you suggest, the sails will blow out fairly quickly unless the master is under bare poles, in which case there is even less control.

Regarding the waves, which are being driven by the same winds, they will be moving faster than the ships, because that is quite simply what they do...Additionally they will be monsters since they are being built up by a 5.6 mph eastward current AND eventually a couple of thousand miles of fetch...so, they will be bearing down on the ships stern, where the steering oars will probably be out of the water every time a crest passes, or will have broken about the same time the sails blew out...Net effect...horrendous conditions, little if any control over the boat's heading, nearly, if not impossible to keep her pointed in any one direction and the overwhelming likelihood that the ship will broach.

Basically, you have sea conditions that are nothing but rogue waves., but all going in the same direction.

So I believe that your galactically unlikely storm will quite simply kill your Romans in a rather unpleasant and terrifying manner.
 
Last edited:
Was grain and livestock a significant export from Britain? I believe that Egypt was the granary of the Empire, and for a number of reasons. It was long established, extremely productive, long growing season, fertile soil, well established shipping routes and relatively short distances.

What were the exports of Roman Britain, how much, and where did they go?
What I can find is that exports were 'agricultural produce' and metal (especially tin, but also various others). Exports went to the north side of the Empire like northern Gaul, not any place that Egyptian grain could get. "Agricultural produce" is loose enough that I would assume that livestock would be included (it's a lot easier to move 10kg of grain as 1kg of cattle, which can move itself).

It is true that the larger period of exports were either early in the Empire period (before Roman Britons were able to produce their own 'civilized' wares) and late (when German invasions mean that farming in Gaul was disrupted, and the larger armies to fight them needed more food.)


But they wouldn't be venturing into deep water would they? They'd probably cross the channel and hug the coast all the way down to Gibralter. If a storm came up, they'd head for the nearest port.

Distance to Chesapeake Bay, by the way, would be between 3000 and 3500 miles. How fast do you see them getting over there?
It is true that, especially when the demand was on the Rhine, that the bulk of exports went Dover-Ostend (essentially). But there were exports to the Atlantic ports of Gaul. No, I don't know how much or how that varied over time.

All cows and no bull means one generation. Again, I'm curious as to the likelihood of Britain being a significant exporter of grain. It doesn't seem economic.
Note the bison cross. I WAS going to have them land in Nova Scotia, but bison didn't range that far. They did come close enough to the Chesapeake Bay area that wandering young males would probably reach the coast occasionally.

I figured that would be less improbable, actually, than shipping a bull in a 'food on the hoof' shipment.
 
Top