Good job!
I am interested in the effect this will have on the War on Terror.
I am interested in the effect this will have on the War on Terror.
Terror in Littleton: How a tragedy shaped a nation
- Thread starter SirCecil
- Start date
Thoughts that I have been having as I read this chilling TL (not necessarily in chronological order).
I liked seeing the fact that, for once, someone in a TL recognizes one of the biggest problems I have seen in “global society” in general and in Europe in particular: the annoying tendency to copy 1:1 all American policies without anyone caring how counterproductive, stupid, or downright evil they are.
Generally, this aspect is ignored, if not highlighted as a net and positive good (Generally in “Liberal Domino Theory” type arguments, or by ignoring and refusing to recognize the existence of pernicious policies in the United States, if not by arrogantly arguing that “well, if it is copied it is because it works”).
Even in a very Anglocentric view of the topic (a Guardian article where only Canada and the United Kingdom are discussed) and in a way that treats it as an afterthought, I think it is good that this topic is mentioned.
Speaking of the United Kingdom, London will start shouting "we leave this shit" threats as soon as the European Union appears to be preparing to combat its extremely harsh school laws. This can end in two ways: either the United Kingdom leaves the EU 20 years early, or the European Union decides that “we need the English to make this project work” and essentially lets them do whatever they want. . That's assuming that the EU is not taken over by pro-American politicians who the first thing they do is implement European laws imitating American ones.
Considering how fiercely ultra-nationalist the United States is and has always been, and the fact that ITTL there is a massive aggressive campaign of persecution against all types of creatives, I am surprised that foreign (non-American) artists and creatives have been basically ignored.
Given the nature of the religious and ultra-conservative right that is currently deciding American ITTL cultural policy, one would expect them to promote harsher cultural policies against foreign products in general and Japanese products in particular. (The American right loves to blame Japan for everything that is “culturally wrong” in its own society, and ITTL that would only become even more pronounced.)
Of course, this would be worded in some way that allows America to square the circle and say that “we are not implementing a system of religious and moral censorship at the state and federal level, BUT we are indeed implementing a system of religious and moral censorship at the state and federal level ”.
There will undoubtedly be calls to bring back the Hays Code, with right-wing politicians shouting that the biggest cultural policy mistake the United States made was repealing the Code in the first place.
A certain American producer named Harvey Weisenstein will be applauded as “a true American patriot” and “someone who did what needed to be done” in response to his decision to cut at least 50% of the original footage from the movie “Princess Mononoke,” That is if you don't directly cancel your license. (OTL Miyazaki refused such cuts, ITTL no doubt Weisenstein will implement them anyway.)
I find it very doubtful that, as has been said in some of the comments, the reaction of young people who have been subjected to this system is to become far-right fanatics against “Big Government.”
This is because essentially what we see here is “what happens when America's far-right wet dreams come true in terms of culture wars,” so essentially it would be like the post-1991 Balts deciding that it's a great idea to reestablish Soviet communism as a way to express their displeasure at how badly the Soviet Union treated them.
I also find it very strange that no one has so far tried to resort to the star argument of Americans to implement harmful, harmful and unpopular policies: resorting to shouting how patriotic it is to support these policies, and how much those who oppose them hate the United States of America. And wrapping these policies in the Stars and Stripes in such a way that not supporting them is considered treason and sedition.
In general, most Americans in the pre-9/11 era loved this idea of being as jingoistic and ultra-jingoistic as possible (Irak and Afghanistan drained this). And given that these policies are essentially the wet dream of the ultra-conservative and religious right in the United States, with this group being the one that most exploits the argument of “uniting around the flag”, it seems very strange to me that they do not try to do it. In particular, I would expect that “defund the school” initiatives will NEVER get off the ground, and that they will be boycotted by the American left on the grounds that “it is important to ensure the education of our children,” while downplaying or refusing to acknowledge that it exists. a problem in the first place.
The general tendency in the United States has always been to assume “he must have done something to deserve the police to arrest him,” not “hmmmm, he is undoubtedly a victim of police arbitrariness and brutality.”
I would like to be able to say that I am surprised by the policy of
“Hey, we think these students might be mass murderers. We must show our strength against them, to dissuade them from doing so. "We're going to do it by antagonizing them in every way possible, to make sure we give them every possible reason to actually want to kill us all, and no reason at all why they should refrain from doing so."
But considering that the default approach of the entire American political class has historically always been to flex muscle and “show strength” (while accusing their enemies of doing the same) it doesn't surprise me at all that they do it. Therefore, I hope that America's reaction to the growing unrest and criticism will be to become more and more authoritarian and reactionary in response to what they perceive as "unwarranted attacks by antisocial and dissolute elements who hate this great country and support our geopolitical enemies.”
The Patriot Act is passed even faster than before, and even tougher, because “we must protect ourselves from domestic terrorists and those who hate us and want to harm us.”
People's support for police militarization will undoubtedly rise in many states, as “we face an increasing threat from traitors and scum who hate the United States of America and want to end our society of freedoms, rights civil and rule of law”.
I liked seeing the fact that, for once, someone in a TL recognizes one of the biggest problems I have seen in “global society” in general and in Europe in particular: the annoying tendency to copy 1:1 all American policies without anyone caring how counterproductive, stupid, or downright evil they are.
Generally, this aspect is ignored, if not highlighted as a net and positive good (Generally in “Liberal Domino Theory” type arguments, or by ignoring and refusing to recognize the existence of pernicious policies in the United States, if not by arrogantly arguing that “well, if it is copied it is because it works”).
Even in a very Anglocentric view of the topic (a Guardian article where only Canada and the United Kingdom are discussed) and in a way that treats it as an afterthought, I think it is good that this topic is mentioned.
Speaking of the United Kingdom, London will start shouting "we leave this shit" threats as soon as the European Union appears to be preparing to combat its extremely harsh school laws. This can end in two ways: either the United Kingdom leaves the EU 20 years early, or the European Union decides that “we need the English to make this project work” and essentially lets them do whatever they want. . That's assuming that the EU is not taken over by pro-American politicians who the first thing they do is implement European laws imitating American ones.
Considering how fiercely ultra-nationalist the United States is and has always been, and the fact that ITTL there is a massive aggressive campaign of persecution against all types of creatives, I am surprised that foreign (non-American) artists and creatives have been basically ignored.
Given the nature of the religious and ultra-conservative right that is currently deciding American ITTL cultural policy, one would expect them to promote harsher cultural policies against foreign products in general and Japanese products in particular. (The American right loves to blame Japan for everything that is “culturally wrong” in its own society, and ITTL that would only become even more pronounced.)
Of course, this would be worded in some way that allows America to square the circle and say that “we are not implementing a system of religious and moral censorship at the state and federal level, BUT we are indeed implementing a system of religious and moral censorship at the state and federal level ”.
There will undoubtedly be calls to bring back the Hays Code, with right-wing politicians shouting that the biggest cultural policy mistake the United States made was repealing the Code in the first place.
A certain American producer named Harvey Weisenstein will be applauded as “a true American patriot” and “someone who did what needed to be done” in response to his decision to cut at least 50% of the original footage from the movie “Princess Mononoke,” That is if you don't directly cancel your license. (OTL Miyazaki refused such cuts, ITTL no doubt Weisenstein will implement them anyway.)
I find it very doubtful that, as has been said in some of the comments, the reaction of young people who have been subjected to this system is to become far-right fanatics against “Big Government.”
This is because essentially what we see here is “what happens when America's far-right wet dreams come true in terms of culture wars,” so essentially it would be like the post-1991 Balts deciding that it's a great idea to reestablish Soviet communism as a way to express their displeasure at how badly the Soviet Union treated them.
I also find it very strange that no one has so far tried to resort to the star argument of Americans to implement harmful, harmful and unpopular policies: resorting to shouting how patriotic it is to support these policies, and how much those who oppose them hate the United States of America. And wrapping these policies in the Stars and Stripes in such a way that not supporting them is considered treason and sedition.
In general, most Americans in the pre-9/11 era loved this idea of being as jingoistic and ultra-jingoistic as possible (Irak and Afghanistan drained this). And given that these policies are essentially the wet dream of the ultra-conservative and religious right in the United States, with this group being the one that most exploits the argument of “uniting around the flag”, it seems very strange to me that they do not try to do it. In particular, I would expect that “defund the school” initiatives will NEVER get off the ground, and that they will be boycotted by the American left on the grounds that “it is important to ensure the education of our children,” while downplaying or refusing to acknowledge that it exists. a problem in the first place.
The general tendency in the United States has always been to assume “he must have done something to deserve the police to arrest him,” not “hmmmm, he is undoubtedly a victim of police arbitrariness and brutality.”
I would like to be able to say that I am surprised by the policy of
“Hey, we think these students might be mass murderers. We must show our strength against them, to dissuade them from doing so. "We're going to do it by antagonizing them in every way possible, to make sure we give them every possible reason to actually want to kill us all, and no reason at all why they should refrain from doing so."
But considering that the default approach of the entire American political class has historically always been to flex muscle and “show strength” (while accusing their enemies of doing the same) it doesn't surprise me at all that they do it. Therefore, I hope that America's reaction to the growing unrest and criticism will be to become more and more authoritarian and reactionary in response to what they perceive as "unwarranted attacks by antisocial and dissolute elements who hate this great country and support our geopolitical enemies.”
The Patriot Act is passed even faster than before, and even tougher, because “we must protect ourselves from domestic terrorists and those who hate us and want to harm us.”
People's support for police militarization will undoubtedly rise in many states, as “we face an increasing threat from traitors and scum who hate the United States of America and want to end our society of freedoms, rights civil and rule of law”.
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Keep in mind that the militia movement was ongoing at this point. A large chunk of the American far right was hostile to the government, and it was this ideology that inspired the Columbine massacre.
In the long term, I would expect a lot more American youths to turn to the far left, particularly those who are nonwhite, female, LGBTQ+, or some combination thereof. This is especially likely once 9/11 happens, which is what ultimately killed the militia movement IOTL as most conservatives became strongly patriotic in supporting the War on Terror.
Oh, fuck. We're probably in for way worse treatment of Muslim-Americans, aren't we...
Oh right I forgot about the militiamen. I think I'm so used to seeing them being the most ultra-nationalist that I forgot that they started as anti-big government militias.
I certainly see it much more likely that these young people lean more towards the extreme left and pro-LGBT and minorities, since they were brutalized and repressed in the name of the impulses of the American anti-LGBT, anti-minorities, conservative and religious far right...
...which is not exactly an ideal breeding ground to create love for an ideology that youngs will basically seen as "the bastards that screwed us over and that we hate, but now 10,000 times more evil and genocidal."
And yes, the Muslims are going to end up really screwed, because this is the type of situation in which the government seeks to start a war to distract the population from its own internal problems...
Given the attitudes that will probably prevail, I wouldn't be surprised to see a genuine national discussion about introducing some form of national service, probably framed as being for the benefit of America's youth who obviously lack discipline. It would be an uphill struggle to get passed, but it wouldn't be impossible. Naturally, this would make the problem of political violence only worse, because taking American teenagers who already have anti-authoritarian views and forcing them into the military is not going to help matters, nor will giving those teenagers military training.
Lets take all the anarchist teenagers and make them into a functional army!
What could go wrong?
Well, a certain terrorist attack will still be occurring, so there's that to consider.
Not just in the United States, but elsewhere as well. I know of discussions about bringing National Service back in the UK (those being quite public), Canada (low to mid level only) as well as parts of Europe. That was without something like this, which could very well increase those calls in those countries and elsewhere. I find it possible that those countries that still have such service won't get rid of it for a bit over the idea of using it to build discipline in their kids.
The problem is that seeing the context of ITTL I suspect that, far from being an uphill struggle, it will be rather one of these cases in which the Government has to catch up with the demands of very conservative parents and politicians who have decided "take matters into our own hands since the government is obviously doing nothing."
It's true that in theory there could be people who say "hey, this isn't that different from the shit they did to me when they called me up to send me to Vietnam."
But given how apparently ITTL the religious conservative right dominates the media, culture, and levers of power, I expect very aggressive campaigns promoting National Service as a way to be a good citizen. And all those protesting are obviously kids who didn't give each other good spankings back in the day...
I don't have high hopes that this will end well.
And 9/11 and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq will very much only add fuel to the fire of these calls.
Fuck, you're right.
This will end with an insurgency on American soil. This will end with American police dead at the hand of renegade conscripts fighting under the skull and crossbones.
And onwards ran the River of Anarchy...
This is something I’d be curious to see more elaboration on from the author. I think I can imagine, but I’m still curious, what is the state of conversion therapy ITTL?
OTL conversion therapy camps for teens actually grew the 90s, thanks in no small part to conservative backlash to the growing gay rights movement. These places were already glorified torture facilities before Columbine. Now? In a timeline where nonconformity is so punished that eating your lunch outside or making homemade horror videos sends you to reformatory school (paid for by the feds no less!), I shudder to think about where people are sending the gay and gender deviant kids.
Trans kids especially. The idea that sexuality is immutable no matter how much psychological conditioning is forced onto someone was the accepted scientific consensus by the 90s, but that was not a luxury often spared for transsexuality. To this day the notion that kids who express interests in things not traditional to their assigned sex have it beaten ‘out’ of them, let alone an identity not matching their birth sex. And it’s only going to be worse here.
Aside from that, hats off to OP. I figured from the title this was going to be a lurid and tasteless story about depicting violence against children, but it’s a really well executed mediation on the very serious subject of systematic child abuse.
It’s an entirely plausible mild dial up on an existing facet of American life (the criminalization of being youth). It serves as a really good mirror to 1990s and current America by taking what already exists, and making it a bit more mask off and blatant.
It’s an entirely plausible mild dial up on an existing facet of American life (the criminalization of being youth). It serves as a really good mirror to 1990s and current America by taking what already exists, and making it a bit more mask off and blatant.
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Not to mention I can easily see all the restrictive laws currently being proposed and passed IOTL as part of the conservative backlash to LGBTQ rights (“bathroom bills”, gender-affirming care bans, “Don’t Say Gay” in schools, schools forced to out suspected queer students to their parents, etc.) happening ITTL’s early 2000s instead, and with far more mainstream support. Indeed, it’s going to be very rough for queer kids ITTL.
The populist wave is going to be much stonger on the left if this occurs tbh
I appreciate the continued comments and apologize for the continued delays. I usually work 60+ hours in a week so I've been trying to play catch up whenever I can. The next update should come in early October, followed by another, likely shorter update sometime after that.
Thank you. I kept it Anglocentric primarily because that's all the information I could find on zero tolerance policies outside the US. I looked to see if anything similar was adopted by any other European country (including Russia) or indeed any other country at all (Brazil, Japan, China) but found nothing.
This is partly from lack of knowledge on non-American artists but also stems from the fact that, as I've previously addressed, America is (legally) less censorious then most other countries, and that includes Japan. The only non-American first world country that I could find that wasn't at least moderately censorious was France. Keeping that in mind it's easy to imagine most non-American creators are actually ending up worse then their American counterparts.
I partially addressed this, most censorship is happening at the grassroots level where private companies are pressured not to stock certain items. It's not impossible for there to be some legal twisting though, which I'll note in a later update.
More likely it's not released in the US for some time.
Uh no? Eric and Dylan, quite simply, hated the school, hated people, and hated society. There was no articulate ideology underpinning the attack besides half-baked social Darwinism (hence Eric's t-shirt saying "Natural Selection") and generalized revenge (Dylan's shirt labeled "Wrath"). It certainly had nothing to do with the militia movement or any kind of right-wing anarchism.
I haven't given it much thought but they would without a doubt see a surge in usage. I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Thank you. I kept it Anglocentric primarily because that's all the information I could find on zero tolerance policies outside the US. I looked to see if anything similar was adopted by any other European country (including Russia) or indeed any other country at all (Brazil, Japan, China) but found nothing.
This is partly from lack of knowledge on non-American artists but also stems from the fact that, as I've previously addressed, America is (legally) less censorious then most other countries, and that includes Japan. The only non-American first world country that I could find that wasn't at least moderately censorious was France. Keeping that in mind it's easy to imagine most non-American creators are actually ending up worse then their American counterparts.
I partially addressed this, most censorship is happening at the grassroots level where private companies are pressured not to stock certain items. It's not impossible for there to be some legal twisting though, which I'll note in a later update.
More likely it's not released in the US for some time.
Uh no? Eric and Dylan, quite simply, hated the school, hated people, and hated society. There was no articulate ideology underpinning the attack besides half-baked social Darwinism (hence Eric's t-shirt saying "Natural Selection") and generalized revenge (Dylan's shirt labeled "Wrath"). It certainly had nothing to do with the militia movement or any kind of right-wing anarchism.
I haven't given it much thought but they would without a doubt see a surge in usage. I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Honestly, considering how Nader was able to court around 700,000 more votes ITTL, it's possible that a leftist 3rd party could actually manage to beat the 5% threshold for federal funding by going "this 'war on kids' thing is bullshit actually," especially if the democrats continuously refuse to nominate someone who could appeal to youth and minorities and actually fight for them. Though, with the effects on the leftist side of politics, it's possible some leftist like Bernie could actually clinch the nomination and get the country to stop torturing kids.
I'm just waiting for when the religious conservatives and social conservatives start chanting to get rid of all the adult content on the Internet and sanitizing the hell out of the Internet. If they're all about "censorship" and "keeping their children from such things", then that would be the first to go.
Don't stress yourself out, friend! I work full-time too, and it's difficult to find time to write while also just finding time to decompress and be with yourself. Update when you're ready, not when we're demanding it. We'll still be here waiting with bated breath