The Death of Russia - TL

[athgtq16129]

How would the historical perception of 1930s-1940s Nazi racial ideology that saw East Slavs as subhumans be ITTL? would people mock the Russian Neo-Nazis/Fascists even more than in IOTL, as history's biggest suicidal idiots, who tried to mimic an ideology that saw them as sub-human asiatics, and tried to genocide them and colonize their lands, though ironically, the Russian Nazis they succeeded in what the original German Nazis failed - destroy, divide, and genocide Russia.

Or would Nazi Germany's hatred of Slavs be intentionally downplayed, in an attempt to portray a direct link between Nazi Germany and NSF Russia?, with historians and pop culture focusing more on the Russian Nazi collaborators such as the post-1944 Russian Liberation Army, and pretending that Nazis didn't really hate Slavs, in a politicized attempt to show that Nazi Germany, its Russian collaborators, and pre-Barbarossa USSR were all equal powers allied in evil?, how would these images below make sense in that timeline?

 

[Fratsup]

I still do believe that Siberia would see an increase in Chinese immigration mostly to work the regions oil and gas infrastructure and move into China. Also since China would control the region economically its likely the Chinese immigrate due to the economic opportunities and special treatment they would get. Also its not like Siberia would have that many people since having more people than European Russia at this point would be easy.

 

[Fratsup]

How would the historical perception of 1930s-1940s Nazi racial ideology that saw East Slavs as subhumans be ITTL? would people mock the Russian Neo-Nazis/Fascists even more than in IOTL, as history's biggest idiots, who tried to mimic an ideology that saw them as sub-human asiatics, and tried to genocide them and colonize their lands, though ironically, the Russian Nazis they succeeded in what the original German Nazis failed - destroy, divide, and genocide Russia.

Or would Nazi Germany's hatred of Slavs be intentionally downplayed, in an attempt to portray a direct link between Nazi Germany and NSF Russia?, with historians and pop culture focusing more on the Russian Nazi collaborators such as the post-1944 Russian Liberation Army, and pretending that Nazis didn't really hate Slavs, in a politicized attempt to show that Nazi Germany, its Russian collaborators, and pre-Barbarossa USSR were all equal powers allied in evil?, would these "memes" make any sense in that timeline?

Neither, considering how the Russian Nazis would mostly have most of their attention be towards their own prejudices than anything outright connected to the German Nazis which they would only share a shared world view of certain groups. Its also likely that the view that the Nazis won in the end as they helped lead to the Russian mindset that destroyed Russia in this TL.

 

[Lalli]

I just can't see China incorporating Siberia even in 500 years. Siberia won't become Chinese majority and annexing the region not make any sense since it could still trade with Siberian government. And Siberia is not going to get lot of Chinese immigrants. The country is not country which welcome every immigrant. And I don't think that there would beeven enough of Chinese immigrants anyway. Mongolia might be possible but I highly doubt that happening with Siberia.

 

[Shiva]

I have a thought on Russian culture, the TL constantly lamented the sheer LOSS of Russia's cultural development and all the artifacts and places irrevocably lost, and how many Russian exiles felt forced to hide who they were to the point they actively tried to force their children to forget everything about Russia and assimilate wherever it was they wound up living in exile.

I could see a push in the next 20/50 years to recover/preserve what is left of 'traditional' Russian culture on a global scale, we've seen some hints of that impulse toward the end of the TL when the Russian monarchy was revived. Though I am curious if 'Nicholas III' even has children/grandchildren to carry on his title directly or will the Romanovs fall into in-fighting over the Russian throne upon his death since it was mentioned that he was quite old.

Regardless, I think there will be a major push for a Russian cultural revival at a later date, but at that point Russian culture will not be about growing and developing and adapting other cultural things into itself with a Russian twist, it will be about preservation and keeping things 'pure'. Effectively Russian culture will become a museum artifact, more useful as a tourist draw in the few places people can physically visit while the world waits for the radiation levels to wear off.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

It would not surprise me if the PRC just annexes those territories in the further future as Mongolia and Siberia become completely dominated by the Chinese and Chinese immigrants and interest groups. Of course at that point its not like the west can do much about it.

Looking at the map Russia would likely start to lose influence across the south to Ukraine and Kazakhstan as the Chinese, Ukrainian, and Kazakh economies move there along with any immigrants they would set up to dominate the regions resources.

Highly doubt Mongolia is going to let that many Chinese immigrants into the country. Why would they? Plus I'd argue Siberia will be even more anti-immigrant since they're desperate to preserve what's left of Russian culture and would see immigrants as a danger to said culture.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Meh, you're overestimating nuclear radiation duration too much. Even most of Hiroshima's radiation only lingered for around 2 years or so. Give it a decade or 2 and I'm betting most of the nuclear radiation are gone by that point. Honestly, European Russia's biggest challenge is definitely how to rebuild their demographics to at least a stable one.

Hiroshima was hit with an airburst. We don't know how many detonations were specifically designed to be ground or airbursts but the areas ethnically cleansed with nukes were definitely launching immense amounts of fallout all over the place and throw in whatever other ground detonations (any detonations close enough to suck in dirt or debris and irradiate it) and Russia is looking at the most difficult recovery of any country ever. Demographic recovery isn't likely this century, maybe not even by the end of the 22nd century depends upon what advancements in technology can potentially do to hel unfuck the land itself.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Speaking of nukes, whatever nukes in European Russia that didn't go off might be quickly stolen by terrorists and criminal organizations which could have really nasty consequences in the future.

 

[Fratsup]

This already happened with Al-Qaeda and nuking Russia.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

This already happened with Al-Qaeda and nuking Russia.

No, I mean after 4/10.

 

[Trevayne]

Hiroshima was hit with an airburst. We don't know how many detonations were specifically designed to be ground or airbursts but the areas ethnically cleansed with nukes were definitely launching immense amounts of fallout all over the place and throw in whatever other ground detonations (any detonations close enough to suck in dirt or debris and irradiate it) and Russia is looking at the most difficult recovery of any country ever. Demographic recovery isn't likely this century, maybe not even by the end of the 22nd century depends upon what advancements in technology can potentially do to hel unfuck the land itself.

That is the question, isn't it? If you are trying to kill people, you generally want airbursts. That way the firestorms and thermal damage cover a larger area, thus killing more people. The main reason for ground bursts is if you want to destroy buried facilities like ICBM silos or command bunkers. If you are trying to ruin an area, you could go for the increased fallout from groundbursts, but why?

I thought each side in the civil war was trying to kill their opposition and win. Thus they want to kill as many of the other side as possible, but not try to salt the earth that they expected to capture.

 

[athgtq16129]

I thought each side in the civil war was trying to kill their opposition and win. Thus they want to kill as many of the other side as possible, but not try to salt the earth that they expected to capture.

At least the Fascists planned this, Sorairo wrote that they didn't nuke Kyiv/Kiev because they believed that it was the birthplace of Russia, and dreamed of capturing it in the future.

Edit: I just remembered to ask a question hours after writing this comment, did the Fascists plan to turn the undamaged and historically/ideologically important Kiev into Russia's new capital if they won the war, and embarked on an expansionist campaign to annex all zones of the former Russian Empire?, or did they intended to remain in Petrograd?

 

[Whiteshore]

Though I am curious if 'Nicholas III' even has children/grandchildren to carry on his title directly or will the Romanovs fall into in-fighting over the Russian throne upon his death since it was mentioned that he was quite old.

He IOTL had daughters, so there's that. And speaking of which, this makes me wonder why the Vladimirovich branch (arguably the "main" branch of the family after Nicholas, his children, and brother were put to death and his nephew had a car accident) wasn't picked? I imagine that it would be justified on the basis that Kirill had pledged his loyalty to the Provisional Government during the February Revolution and thus could have been considered to have surrendered his claims to the Russian throne or some nonsense along those lines.

 

[Polish Eagle]

He IOTL had daughters, so there's that. And speaking of which, this makes me wonder why the Vladimirovich branch (arguably the "main" branch of the family after Nicholas, his children, and brother were put to death and his nephew had a car accident) wasn't picked? I imagine that it would be justified on the basis that Kirill had pledged his loyalty to the Provisional Government during the February Revolution and thus could have been considered to have surrendered his claims to the Russian throne or some nonsense along those lines.

The claimant from that line would be, during the TL, Maria Vladimirovna, no?

Is it possible she did something monumentally stupid like move to NSF Petrograd in the hope of securing the restoration in the chaos, and died off-screen as a result?

 

[Whiteshore]

The claimant from that line would be, during the TL, Maria Vladimirovna, no?

Yup.

Is it possible she did something monumentally stupid like move to NSF Petrograd in the hope of securing the restoration in the chaos, and died off-screen as a result?

That or the Pauline Laws (or her grandfather's actions in the February Revolution) were used to disqualify her, which makes Nicholas III being succeeded by his daughter ironic.

 

[CarlosTheAltHistoryGuy]

Random question, what happened to Poland's hypothetical nuclear program? I think they wanted to develop nukes in the 90s in the case that NATO didn't let them in

 

[Polish Eagle]

Random question, what happened to Poland's hypothetical nuclear program? I think they wanted to develop nukes in the 90s in the case that NATO didn't let them in

Poland was let into NATO early as a result of Moscow’s disintegration, and presumably any interest in the project faded after that and the general economic chaos of the 1990s.

After the world got strict about nuclear non-proliferation, it’s probably become something only a very small right-wing anti-NATO fringe talk about.

I am curious as to how Poland’s small Orthodox minority got treated during the second RCW, especially after Gdańsk got hit. There are very few actual ethnic Muscovites in Poland, and the government has probably gone to great lengths to assure people that Belarusians and Ukrainians are definitely not the same thing…but I wouldn’t be surprised if Polish Orthodox Christians were subjected to targeted criminal attacks, maybe even an outright pogrom or two.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Poland was let into NATO early as a result of Moscow’s disintegration, and presumably any interest in the project faded after that and the general economic chaos of the 1990s.

After the world got strict about nuclear non-proliferation, it’s probably become something only a very small right-wing anti-NATO fringe talk about.

I am curious as to how Poland’s small Orthodox minority got treated during the second RCW, especially after Gdańsk got hit. There are very few actual ethnic Muscovites in Poland, and the government has probably gone to great lengths to assure people that Belarusians and Ukrainians are definitely not the same thing…but I wouldn’t be surprised if Polish Orthodox Christians were subjected to targeted criminal attacks, maybe even an outright pogrom or two.

Is that a likely thing to happen? How racist can the Polish get nowadays?

 

[Polish Eagle]

Is that a likely thing to happen? How racist can the Polish get nowadays?

Nowadays is not the question so much as the situation on the ground in TTL 1996.

After 3 years of watching their eastern neighbor fulfill every pejorative a Pole has ever said about them, and then inventing new war crimes that more resemble the average Pole’s perception of sub-Saharan Africa than a European country, and then to top it off glassing a Polish city in their death throes…IOTL, there was a wave of state-sanctioned anti-Orthodox action, mostly the revindication of churches, when Poland gained her independence, culminating in the ritual demolition of the Nevsky church in Warsaw (a particularly hated building, since it was understood to be a physical expression of Tsarist domination). Bonds were sold so that Poles across the country could participate in that. While the Third Polish Republic won’t support it officially (musn’t look bad in front of the Americans, and Belarus and Ukraine are important factors too), I think you’re going to see lots of unofficial crime this time around before things settle. Since religiosity is going to be pretty much the only distinguishing feature of connection to Moscow, I think that violence will manifest as attacks on Orthodox buildings and faithful.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Nowadays is not the question so much as the situation on the ground in TTL 1996.

After 3 years of watching their eastern neighbor fulfill every pejorative a Pole has ever said about them, and then inventing new war crimes that more resemble the average Pole’s perception of sub-Saharan Africa than a European country, and then to top it off glassing a Polish city in their death throes…IOTL, there was a wave of state-sanctioned anti-Orthodox action, mostly the revindication of churches, when Poland gained her independence, culminating in the ritual demolition of the Nevsky church in Warsaw (a particularly hated building, since it was understood to be a physical expression of Tsarist domination). Bonds were sold so that Poles across the country could participate in that. While the Third Polish Republic won’t support it officially (musn’t look bad in front of the Americans, and Belarus and Ukraine are important factors too), I think you’re going to see lots of unofficial crime this time around before things settle. Since religiosity is going to be pretty much the only distinguishing feature of connection to Moscow, I think that violence will manifest as attacks on Orthodox buildings and faithful.

I brought this up before, but something similar will happen to Muslims in countries like France, India, and Israel when word get south that Islamist extremists were the ones who set off the bomb. Overall, I expect a massive surge in anti-immigrant sentiment with fears over nukes being slipped through borders being the basis for shutting down borders, tougher immigration policies, and more inspections across airplanes, trains, and highways that would make the TSA blush.