I am more curious why Anne would pawn the crown jewels to Theodore of all people. After all you could pawn them as OTL to venice without the having the consequences of adding more legitimacy to someone who already has a good claim to the Byzantine throne
The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
That's not the problem she has to worry about now. And Theodore's ships running the Aydinid blockades is important for the loyalists and proof enough of where Lascarid sympathies lean. Theodore is both a cousin and an ally or friendly; Venice... is a loan shark. Better get money from your family than from someone which has already put your city to the sack.
Now, unless Theodore make a widow among Charles' daughters, the Angevin match is out of consideration.
Though I wonder, did Alexandros meet Helen before Robert's death, to get to know each other perhaps ? Would it be then possible to conceive the two teenagers fell in love?
After all, Walter VI of Brienne would be thirty years Helene's senior, so I'd think Helene would be more susceptible to be enamored of young Alexandros, who is only about five or six years her senior.
Even the Hungarian Angevin match is not really possible since Louis is still childless.
I'd rule an imperial match unlikely as well for Alexandros. First, that would require Theodore to openly pick a side and would likely draw him into a direct intervention. Besides, since Lascarid sympathies are with the regency, that excludes a Kantakouzenos match, but on the other hand, Anna would not have a bride to offer; I suppose her eldest has still been married to the Bulgarians, which leave the youngest Maria, who must be barely five at the time, so out of question.
That leaves an Aragonese match; Alfonso IV's daughter Elizabeth (OTL 1323-1327) if she had survived would be the right age to be betrothed to Alexandros.
Of course, there is still the possibility of a domestic match.
Though I wonder, did Alexandros meet Helen before Robert's death, to get to know each other perhaps ? Would it be then possible to conceive the two teenagers fell in love?
After all, Walter VI of Brienne would be thirty years Helene's senior, so I'd think Helene would be more susceptible to be enamored of young Alexandros, who is only about five or six years her senior.
Even the Hungarian Angevin match is not really possible since Louis is still childless.
I'd rule an imperial match unlikely as well for Alexandros. First, that would require Theodore to openly pick a side and would likely draw him into a direct intervention. Besides, since Lascarid sympathies are with the regency, that excludes a Kantakouzenos match, but on the other hand, Anna would not have a bride to offer; I suppose her eldest has still been married to the Bulgarians, which leave the youngest Maria, who must be barely five at the time, so out of question.
That leaves an Aragonese match; Alfonso IV's daughter Elizabeth (OTL 1323-1327) if she had survived would be the right age to be betrothed to Alexandros.
Of course, there is still the possibility of a domestic match.
Hmm so the civil war's going much the same way as otl, other than minor differences due to the Lacarids being around (like the Crown Jewels, which is insane and definitely won't bite the Palailogians in the ass in the future...
As things go by, I think that Theodore would intervene against Stefan and the Aydinids especially as they march against the regency. Theodore may very well be forced into the war (and to help the regency) by circumstance.
Both Louis and Charles breaking their marriage contracts is interesting. Assuming Andrew dies as per otl we'd basically see the same thing happen as per otl where Louis of Hungary comes down the Italian peninsula to exact revenge for his brother's death.
I think with the Lascarids there Louis of Hungary would very much succeed in holding Naples provided that its given to the Lascarids to rule, and that Louis acts a lot less brutal to the people (which may not be plausible). Nonetheless, I still see Theodore very much being able to rule the region if the regions he rules have low taxes and be treats the communes and merchant families well, which he probably would.
This makes the position of Charles, Joanna and the Neapolitan Angevins a lot harder. If they're stuck in Marseille and cannot win against Theodore and Philantropenos, and the rest of Naples are relatively happy with where they are, launching a reconquest would be impossible considering that France is under the Hundred Years War they would be rather occupied with other problems and would not be able to help the Angevins at all.
How does Charles even want to attempt retaking Achaea? Unless he staves off the killing of Andrew I don't think he would have time to act against the Lascarids. Even with Walter of Brienne marching against the Desperate unless the bulk of the Despotate's armies are tied up against Stefan Dusan (a plausible thing) they will just straight up lose against the Despotate. And Louis will be out for their asses soon enough.
Yep that is very true, the Lascarids are also rather friendly with them rn, so it makes sense.
It would be fun if Helene escapes to the Despotate after feigning 'to leave for Palmero', it'd be cool and it would be very fun for the Lascarids to have some Angevin blood in them (prob not but hopefully...). Considering Alexandros' father and Helene's aunt I hope we get a repeat of them eloping to get married in Athens or Syracuse, with Barlaam blessing the marriage once again (and probably chuckling to himself about how ridiculous Lascarid men are).
Or have Walter be killed soon after and have Helene be 'kidnapped' by the Lascarids, which is possible.
A Hungarian-Angevin match is technically possible if Louis weds his sister, Catharine of Hungary, to Alexandros, since she's widowed in 1343/1344. She's probably ten years his senior though, which may not be ideal, and she already had a daughter at this point, so its not a good match by most metrics.
A palailogian match isn't good for many reasons, as with a Kantakozenous match. The Angevin match looks dead in the water, and the other matches don't seem like good matches at all. I do think Helene, or a Bulgarian match seem like not-terrible options other than a queen from Syracuse/Athens.
A funny/insane option is the Palailogos-Montferrats just for how both families were built from Greek families despite how Italised the Montferrat family is now. If Yolande outlives her husband who died in 1343 (well she died in 1342 from birthing her child, so yeah not likely), a Yolande Alexandros match could happen.
Considering how things are going though I wonder if we'd just see Alexandros going 'hey dad can I kidnap Helene so I can marry her' and Theodore saying 'yeah sure that's how I married your mom' lol. And I do agree that Helene and Alexandros are a lot likely to have a good relationship than Helene and Walter.
That'd surely be not worth the troubles going along, especially as it means getting dragged in the mess of Italian affairs, or having a border with the papal states.
The Lascarids would be better off with simply annexing Angevin holdings in Greece and Sicily, so that Calabria aside, the Lascarids would only have to defend the narrow and mountainous border of Calabria and keep control of the sea to remain safe.
I'd add the Campanian archipelago for good measure, so the Lascarids get a permanent dagger pointed at Naples' throat as a good insurance policy, and some gains in Basilicata to add defensive depth to the border of Calabria. Otherwise, once the Angevins are kicked out of Sicily and Greece, Naples would no longer be a threat to the Despotate.
When it comes to the crown jewels, I am not sure the event will have a lot of importance. The crown jewels of Andronikos III were nothing like the Iron Crown of Lombardy or the Crown of St Stephen. They do not come down from a long series of emperors. At least I think so.
Somebody needs to start sweating and that somebody is Andrew of Hungary. While we don't know who was the mastermind of his murder, all things point to the Tarantines. We also know that Andrew was being bullied while growing up in the neapolitcan court. Who would have been so powerful (and stupid but that's another thing) to bully Charles Robert's son? It should have been either the Tarantines or the Gravinas and logic would point more to the Taranto branch. Now the Taranto bloc is more powerful than in OTL, whith Brienne being effectively the master of Val di Mazara. The only obstacle to completely dominate the Regno is Andrew and in OTL they didn't shrink away from murder even though they were weaker.
Having said that, I am pretty sure they were very $^&*#@ stupid. Carobert was a very powerful monarch and quite the vengeful type. Felician Záh tried to murder Carobert and his queen. To quote from the "Angevin Dynasties of Europe" :
By all means, it seems that Louis took his father's temper, while he was also a very capable monarch. And the Tarantines thought that it was a very cunning plan to murder that guy's brother.
Somebody needs to start sweating and that somebody is Andrew of Hungary. While we don't know who was the mastermind of his murder, all things point to the Tarantines. We also know that Andrew was being bullied while growing up in the neapolitcan court. Who would have been so powerful (and stupid but that's another thing) to bully Charles Robert's son? It should have been either the Tarantines or the Gravinas and logic would point more to the Taranto branch. Now the Taranto bloc is more powerful than in OTL, whith Brienne being effectively the master of Val di Mazara. The only obstacle to completely dominate the Regno is Andrew and in OTL they didn't shrink away from murder even though they were weaker.
Having said that, I am pretty sure they were very $^&*#@ stupid. Carobert was a very powerful monarch and quite the vengeful type. Felician Záh tried to murder Carobert and his queen. To quote from the "Angevin Dynasties of Europe" :
By all means, it seems that Louis took his father's temper, while he was also a very capable monarch. And the Tarantines thought that it was a very cunning plan to murder that guy's brother.
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Vince
Monthly Donor
The Lascarids just cannot catch their breath without somebody pulling them into a war.
Even though the Byzantine Civil Wars went mostly to the script, I'm hoping Dusan doesn't shatter them as he does in our TL.
On a side note as a huge 'Cuse fan, I'm hoping the University of Syracuse has orange somewhere as its symbol.
Even though the Byzantine Civil Wars went mostly to the script, I'm hoping Dusan doesn't shatter them as he does in our TL.
On a side note as a huge 'Cuse fan, I'm hoping the University of Syracuse has orange somewhere as its symbol.
At least the Lascarids had some peace, but there comes another war.
Most of the Despotate existance so far has been waging one war or another for 44 out of the past 61 years of TL: War of the Vespers (1282-1302), conquest of Achaea (1305-1309), Lascarid-Frederick War (1315 - 1335).
Most of the Despotate existance so far has been waging one war or another for 44 out of the past 61 years of TL: War of the Vespers (1282-1302), conquest of Achaea (1305-1309), Lascarid-Frederick War (1315 - 1335).
Maybe they can support the Hospitalier Order waging war against Aydin even if not declaring war themselves. I don't think involving Venice or Genoa in another Roman civil war would be popular or even useful in the long run.
I am talking about a war solely against Aydin, not against Ioannis VI directly (who doesn't have any significant fleet to begin with). Since Aydin is a threat to free trade, the Venetians and the Genoese (maybe) would be interested in participating . Don't forget the IOTL Smyrniote crusades which took place between 1343-1351 against the emirate of Aydin and Venice was a participant in these crusades.
Eh if Louis goes away fast enough to let the Lascarids do their own thing I think it's doable, and even if they're keeping the Angevins alive not taking Aquila (one of the last few areas with a significant greek presence and allows them to control the Adriatic) it definitely would be viable. And if the Lascarids are going to be enemies with this Charles and Joanna they're going to be enemies until they die, especially if Campania, Basilicata and Aquila would be gained through the conquest of Louis the great. The half measure would only make the Angevins permanent enemies until the Angevins go extinct, especially as the Balkans becomes more insane.
Yeah I think this event will go as per otl. Most of the court didn't like Andrew and if anything his lack of allies in Naples would be his undoing.
And with the Lascarids not under the warpath (and having just been sighted by Charles) them being neutral in the conflict suits them a lot more, and if Charles pisses them off I don't think we'd have a kingdom of Naples after the fact, only a kingdom of Sicily.
We know a significant amount of the last war wasn't fought using the war tax, so most of the lands of the Lascarids are effectively under peace-time rule. I think the despotate has good odds in fighting out the crisis at hand as long as they don't go on the offensive first (probably against Stefan as the Lascarids practically support the regency).
I defo see the Lascarids trying to help later, especially as the hospitalar probably would be fighting alongside the other Catholic powers, but I think the Lascarids probably would fight the Serbs first (or be occupied with them). I think the Lascarids would join them post civil war when things are mostly calm and kill the Aydinids before they become a problem again.
The Despotate is in a very peculiar spot. Threats are rising in every direction, with some being greater than others.
The main threat is a hostile Tarantine-dominated Regno. While the Despotate can utilize its control of the Messina Strait between the Tyrrhenian and Ioanian Seas and achieve naval supremacy in the east, the Angevins are a peer or even perhaps more powerful in the Tyrrhenian Sea and can invade both Calabria and Lascarid Sicily.
The second greatest threat is the serbian invasion of Macedonia and later on, Epirus. If the Serbians get first to imperial upland Thessaly, then it is a grave threat against Lascarid Greece. My working hypothesis is that imperial Thessaly consists of the major castle of Damasi and the towns of Tyrnavos and Elassona. It will be interesting to know whether the castle of Oria/Lycostomion near the Tempe Gorge is in lascarid or imperial hands.
The third and smaller threat is that of Umur. We know that Umur won't establish a base in Europe and will soon lose Smyrna. However, Theodore and Michael don't know such thing. They see Umur attacking Thessaloniki and using the Evros river for multiple campaigns in Thrace. It will be alarming to see their main enemy in the Aegean to be about to establish a bridgehead in Europe.
I expect that the responce to such diverse threats would be coalition forming and getting buffer zones. They cannot hope to be neutral while enemies are closing in from all directions.
Umur is the only threat that be dealt with swiftly before resources will be needed elsewhere. The Holy League is already forming and it would make sense for the Lascarids to send a large fleet for a quick and decisive victory. There is also the chance that Michael attacks Umur on his way back to Smyrna at spring 1344. My guess is that Umur's base is still the Evros valley. A sizeable lascarid participation in the coming crusade can produce all sorts of butterflies.
Then there is the serbian threat. If the Lascarids don't want to fight the Serbians in the thessalian lowlands, they have to secure quickly upland Thessaly and quite possibly the important castle Platamon. Thessaloniki would be the most important lascarid target since it is the only place that can project power at the Serbians' rear. The political forces dominating the commune have a lot of reasons to prefer Theodore over the two claimants of the Purple. There are a lot of options there: direct control of the city, getting the regency to rubber stamp as kephale a Lascarid man (and have that representative to speak for Theodore are the Senate and the Assembly), or direct alliance with the city.
Likewise, the Lascarids may choose to try to control strategic point at the macedonian and thracian mainland. One is the castle of Anactoropolis that in OTL resisted Dusan and stayed in byzantine hands. Alongside with lascarid Thasos, it controls the sea passage between Thessaloniki and Constantinople. Christoupolis (modern Kavala) is also of importance, even greater than Anactoropolis since it also controls the Via Egnatia. When it comes to Thrace, I guess Umur and Kantakouzenos control Ainos at the mouth of Evros river. That city controls access to the Evros valley and is difficult to be sieged from land, with marshland protecting it. On the bright side, Ainos is a major salt producer.
Lastly, the main threat and the coming war. I think Theodore has some breathing space when it comes to a clash with Naples. It will take some time for the Tarantines and Charles to build the needed consensus for war. I doubt for example that the Gravinas will be overly happy with the Tarantines effectively taking over the realm.
Nice source of the involvement of turkish beyliks in the civil war.
The main threat is a hostile Tarantine-dominated Regno. While the Despotate can utilize its control of the Messina Strait between the Tyrrhenian and Ioanian Seas and achieve naval supremacy in the east, the Angevins are a peer or even perhaps more powerful in the Tyrrhenian Sea and can invade both Calabria and Lascarid Sicily.
The second greatest threat is the serbian invasion of Macedonia and later on, Epirus. If the Serbians get first to imperial upland Thessaly, then it is a grave threat against Lascarid Greece. My working hypothesis is that imperial Thessaly consists of the major castle of Damasi and the towns of Tyrnavos and Elassona. It will be interesting to know whether the castle of Oria/Lycostomion near the Tempe Gorge is in lascarid or imperial hands.
The third and smaller threat is that of Umur. We know that Umur won't establish a base in Europe and will soon lose Smyrna. However, Theodore and Michael don't know such thing. They see Umur attacking Thessaloniki and using the Evros river for multiple campaigns in Thrace. It will be alarming to see their main enemy in the Aegean to be about to establish a bridgehead in Europe.
I expect that the responce to such diverse threats would be coalition forming and getting buffer zones. They cannot hope to be neutral while enemies are closing in from all directions.
Umur is the only threat that be dealt with swiftly before resources will be needed elsewhere. The Holy League is already forming and it would make sense for the Lascarids to send a large fleet for a quick and decisive victory. There is also the chance that Michael attacks Umur on his way back to Smyrna at spring 1344. My guess is that Umur's base is still the Evros valley. A sizeable lascarid participation in the coming crusade can produce all sorts of butterflies.
Then there is the serbian threat. If the Lascarids don't want to fight the Serbians in the thessalian lowlands, they have to secure quickly upland Thessaly and quite possibly the important castle Platamon. Thessaloniki would be the most important lascarid target since it is the only place that can project power at the Serbians' rear. The political forces dominating the commune have a lot of reasons to prefer Theodore over the two claimants of the Purple. There are a lot of options there: direct control of the city, getting the regency to rubber stamp as kephale a Lascarid man (and have that representative to speak for Theodore are the Senate and the Assembly), or direct alliance with the city.
Likewise, the Lascarids may choose to try to control strategic point at the macedonian and thracian mainland. One is the castle of Anactoropolis that in OTL resisted Dusan and stayed in byzantine hands. Alongside with lascarid Thasos, it controls the sea passage between Thessaloniki and Constantinople. Christoupolis (modern Kavala) is also of importance, even greater than Anactoropolis since it also controls the Via Egnatia. When it comes to Thrace, I guess Umur and Kantakouzenos control Ainos at the mouth of Evros river. That city controls access to the Evros valley and is difficult to be sieged from land, with marshland protecting it. On the bright side, Ainos is a major salt producer.
Lastly, the main threat and the coming war. I think Theodore has some breathing space when it comes to a clash with Naples. It will take some time for the Tarantines and Charles to build the needed consensus for war. I doubt for example that the Gravinas will be overly happy with the Tarantines effectively taking over the realm.
Nice source of the involvement of turkish beyliks in the civil war.
"Cumans, Tatars and Anatolian Turks in the Palaiologan civil wars", in Skhid i Ukrayina. Mateialy mizhnarodnoyi naukovoyi konferenciyi “Skhid ta Ukrayina: Naukova konferenciya prysvyachenna pamyati Yaroslava Dashkevycha, yaka vidbulas'
"Cumans, Tatars and Anatolian Turks in the Palaiologan civil wars", in Skhid i Ukrayina. Mateialy mizhnarodnoyi naukovoyi konferenciyi “Skhid ta Ukrayina: Naukova konferenciya prysvyachenna pamyati Yaroslava Dashkevycha, yaka vidbulas'
www.academia.edu
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Doable, yes, but not desirable.
Contrary to Sicily or Aetolia/Arcanania, which can be probably be culled in no time, due to local sympathies and geography favoring the Lascarids (both would be cut off from mainland Italy by Lascarid fleets), the Regno would require a more methodical conquest, reducing stronghold after stronghold. Louis' conquest was superficial and once he withdraws, the Lascarid cannot hope to occupy each and every stronghold in the Regno, still as populous and about as wide as the Despotate is. The Neapolitan nobility is not going to simply fold and submit to the Greek 'schismatics' of Syracuse, and from what happened in Lascarid domains of feudal domains, they have no reasons to, and there is little in the way of resources and alternative bases of support the Lascarids can hope to leverage against them unlike Greece and Sicily.
They could probably hold onto Naples and a few other ports, but beyond, they'd have to reduce each castle and stronghold one by one. Conquering Achaea from the Frankish barons took four years even with local support from greek peasantry, and no other war distracting the Despotate. The Regno ?
The conquest and pacification is a long term sinkhole of money and manpower they cannot afford while so many things are happening in the Balkans and Anatolia and are of more pressing concern.
I think that at at least 23-32 of these ships were turkish, most likely from Karasi.
@Lascaris I wonder which claimant do the Byzantine islands support ? Is it fair to assume that due to the lack of mentions, they support the regency ?
I believe the Karasids were annexed by the Ottomans around this time, or about to be. Could they have provided such help then?
That's a very good question. We only know that the ships were turkish. Umur and Sarukhan are out of the question. In 1343 we know the Karasids had sent troops to support the regency. In 1344, Suleyman beg met Kantakouzenos in Gallipoli and offered him support. In 1345, he joined with Umur to campaign in Thrace in support of Kantakouzenos. So, in 1343 it seems they were supporting the regents.
While on the other it could have been ottoman ships, I think the Ottomans got most of their future naval capacity after the annexation of Karasi.
By the way, there is a good chance that the ships burned by the Holy League in Pallene in 1344, were not Umur's. Because afterwards, the crews of those ships negotiated with Kantakouzenos to enter his service for a limited time on their way back home. If they were Aydinid and already allied or employed by Kantakouzenos, there would not be a reason to negotiate again to be in his employ. I think there is a good chance that the fleet destroyed by the Crusaders was either from Karasi or Sarukhan.
An excellent way to get Adrienne mad at you and you don't want Adrienne mad at you if you want Syracuse on your side. But do we actually know when Maria was born? We don't. Eirene was born 1327, John 1332, Michael 1337. Maria? Could be 1340 but just as easily could be 1328, or any year in-between aside from 1332 and 1337. Which would make her at the time of her marriage between 14 and 26.
Ok speaking of dynastic matches for Alexandros, what are the potential matches as of early 1344? The list below covers most not too old and born up to present.
- Eleanor of Portugal born 1328... as long as Maria of Navarre does not die in childbirth
- Agnes of Navarre born 1337 or Blanche born 1331.. in 1345 it will be proposed to marry her with Peter of Castille then in 1350 Philip VI of France will get infatuated with her and marry her despite being a few decades her senior.
- Juana of Castille born in 1342 or 1338. She's illegitimate of course and too young at the moment.
- Constance of Aragon. Born 1343.
- Isabella of England born 1330 or Joan born 1333
- Margaret (1325) or Anna (1326), or Elizabeth (1329) or Agnes (1335) of Bavaria. Now Louis IV was not in a hurry to marry off his daughters he waited to 1350 except for Anna.
- Catherine of Bohemia born 1342
- Bianca of Savoy born 1337
- Theodora of Serbia. born sometime after 1327
- Elizabeth of Bosniα. Born 1339
- Theodora Kantakouzenos, born 1330
- Maria Palaiologina, born before 1340
- Constance (born 1324) or Eleanor (1325), or Beatrice (1326) or Euphemia (1330) of Sicily. Of course one might question what the kings of Albania by now have to offer that the despotate cares about...
Theodora of Serbia would be a rather interesting choice . A royal of Palaiologian blood and Stefan's sister . Would Stefan be in favor of a union like that though ?
Alexandros needs a bride promptly given he is an only child. He can’t have someone who was born in the 1340s. She needs to be preferably born in the 1320s-early1330s. Is Catherine of Hungary not an option?
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Serbian interests clash too much with Lascarid ones for this to really make sense, especially with Louis of Hungary also about to campaign against the Serbs (no reason for this to change).