The eagle's left head

While the Aegean was a sideshow , it was one that couldn't be ignored without creating threats to half the Lascarid domain . Now that this is pretty much solved , Theodore can focus in the main theatre without the threat of losing islands while looking elsewhere .
The threat was just part of the Angevin fleet with limited ground forces. It was never as lethal a threat as Charles. If they had 5k extra troops at the Battle of Mela River, they could have potentially knocked out Charles then and there instead of just winning a tactical victory. Had the knocked Charles out, the threat to the Aegean would have automatically also ended.
 
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Well, Charles' army is not a lethal threat, yet. The Lascarid lands in Calabria and Sicily are heavily fortified and awash with veterans (20 years of war against Frederick III helps), so they can trade for time, but that time has to spent wisely.
The threat comes from the sea.
The sea lanes are what make and can unmake the Despotate's power. Prior to the battle of Rhodes in April 1346 here, the critical issue was that as long as Rhodes was a threat to Greece, the Lascarids could not quite leverage their full resources, that is, the resources of Hellas, against Charles' naval threat.
End the threat of Rhodes and Zaccaria's fleet, and you can move freely around, and focus on Charles, in Sicily, cut off Angevins in Lepanto, Vonitsa, and Corfu. The reinforcements from Greece that took part in the battle of the Mela river did not arrive until after Rhodes was put under siege and removed as a threat.
 
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I am more curious on whats going to happen to the knights hospitallars. They lost rhodes, malta is a no go. They are poor, so whats going to happen to them?
 
Signing a marriage contract with George Chrysafis, Theodore's envoy for the marriage of Alexandros and Blanche was easier to shallow....
Now., this would imply from now on through the couple sons/daughter that Vastastez will be part/relatives from the French high aristocracy and that if ITTL Blanche brother's fate wouldn't be butterflied... Then, down the line, both Alexandros and/or his heir, would be the ones with the stronger claim/next in line to inherit Navarre...
I am more curious on whats going to happen to the knights hospitallars. They lost rhodes, malta is a no go. They are poor, so whats going to happen to them?
Well, I'd guess that depending on the surrender terms, that they either may be ransomed or paroled and let them go their way... And, if so, I'd suppose that'd they would be in need to find both a new home/shelter and a patron/employer that would help to recover/redeem their recent defeat through, perhaps fighting against the infidels...
 
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Probably short term, the Knights will move back to their holdings on Cyprus, but will be on the look out for a new home, and it would be one easy way to get on the good side of the Pope and the West for a ruler in distress, who needs veteran troops and is in a bad position, plus is facing a lot of either infidels or schismatics. . .
Plus the thought of Anna of savoy hiring/employing the Knights Hospitaller to fend off Kantakouzenos and his Turks is just plain funny to me. Knights take Gallipoli from the Turks and make it or maybe Byzantine Lesbos their new home.
 
If there is anything to add to the ongoing discussion, I personally believe that the Hospitallers should move somewhere outside the Mediterranean. Or at least beyond the reach and influence of the Lascarids. Maybe Crimea? Genoa will have a harder time now, and Kaffa, devastated by the Black Death, would be a good start for taking over the rest of the peninsula.
 
Thessaloniki, March 1346
even with the Commune rising up, we have no idea who they are under the control of. With Anna of Savoy having a weak showing as time goes on I wonder when they'd switch to calling Theodore the Autokrator of the Roman Empire...

Also considering their proximity to the Lascarids I wonder if the Lascarids would just fight the Serbians over the Balkans, especially right after they finish dealing with Charles (it prob depends when Louis gets to Naples), which would allow them to stop looking at the peninsula and focus on Dusan.

Especially if the Black Death was pushed back a few years due to different trading patterns.
Adrianople, May 21st, 1346
and Dusan calls himself emperor of the ERE and Serbia, showing that he's just here for himself and to conquer Greece proper. I don't see in any world that Serbia and the Lascarids would not fight at all.
Visegrad, Pest, September 1346
Louis realising that the Lascarids are doing good are a boon and a curse. On one hand it is good that he recognises the Lascarids with having common cause. On the other it means that he prob won't march until he is done with Zara...
Mela river, Sicily, August 10, 1346
And the Lascarid pikemen saves the day.

This primitive form of pike and shot, and the light cavalry, are all very important bits of the Lascarid army, and I'm glad that they're brought to bear against the Angevin army and shown to be very useful. I hope they quickly get Charles out of Sicily and keep him there by attacking naples.

Speaking of infantry I wonder would we get a 'Sicilian/Greek billhook' out of the commune-peasant base of the Lascarids. Historically farming implements were used by people at war bc it was easier to mount your farming implements on a stick and to go to war; I think outside of trained pike regiments peasant-derived weapons would be common too. With Greek billhooks looking very different than British and Italian billhooks I think they'd be remembered if they were brought to bear against other opponents. It'd fit how the peasants and communes are where political power comes.

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an example of a traditional greek billhook. if mounted on a pole would made for a devastating weapon against armoured opponents, especially if a spike was added to the top.

Scythes could also be a cool weapon for the Lascarids would utilise, especially if its constructed properly, and would be quite coo to see too.
Rhodes, October 17th 1346
and so the Hospitalars are done. I do think it is about time, and other than mopping up the Turkish garrisons which would not want to leave, the next step is to ensure they have oceanic supremacy against the Angevins.

Seeing cannonry being present in the assault is very cool too, seeing that in the navy is a good thing for the Lascarid armies in general, if they manage to get those against Charles III it would be a great asset if only to spook the the levies that don't want to even be there.

I'd imagine Charles would feel more and more pressured as time goes on, but with everything happening I don't think he could be able to deal with them as time goes by. He's created too many problems for himself.
Navarre, November 1346
This is not a bad match, but I wonder what advantages there are to Navarre. It's not like it'll stave off Aragon nor Castille, as the Desperate seem to be mostly at war at least until 1400, and Blanche wouldn't have a lot of French ties by virtue of marrying Alexandros. ig at least the French wouldn't see Alexandros II's descendants as 'outsiders'?

Given otl I could see Blanche falling in love with Alexandros and bettering the despotate. I hope we see her interacting with Barlaam and being pleasantly surprised by how opulent Syracuse is due to the wealth the Lascarids are amassing from trade, as Syracuse was very much a former great city that has fallen into irrelevance until two generations ago.
Well, Wikipedia does call her one of the most beautiful princesses of her time, and considering her husband this time around is 20, only about 5 or so years older than her, odds are that this will be a rather good match for both of them and one that will prove highly fruitful in terms of progeny. Alexandros is also unlikely to die due to "exhaustion from constantly fulfilling his conjugal duties" which is rumored to have been what killed her OTL husband who was also 40 years (shudder) her senior.

Here's hoping it goes well for them.
unless Alexandros II dies of the Black Death, although that would be annoying asf that happens lol.

Alexandros creating a few cadet branches via spare heirs he makes with Blanche will be good for the longevity of the Lascarid dynasty. I'd imagine we get Vatatzes and Palailogos cadet branches from their progeny, which would be pretty interesting in general.
End the threat of Rhodes and Zaccaria's fleet, and you can move freely around, and focus on Charles, in Sicily, cut off Angevins in Lepanto, Vonitsa, and Corfu. The reinforcements from Greece that took part in the battle of the Mela river did not arrive until after Rhodes was put under siege and removed as a threat.
I agree other than the fact that the mopping up would still take time since the Aydinid sultanate would try to keep the islands that declared for them, so I'd see the a significant part of the navy be left in the Aegean to counteract Aydinid power while the rest goes to deal with Charles.

Thing is the Lascarids are still very much unable to push against one enemy yet, and due to their relative weakness they have to destroy their enemies one by one.
Now., this would imply from now on through the couple sons/daughter that Vastastez will be part/relatives from the French high aristocracy and that if ITTL Blanche brother's fate wouldn't be butterflied... Then, down the line, both Alexandros and/or his heir, would be the ones with the stronger claim/next in line to inherit Navarre...
the claim would be effectively useless for a family mostly focused on the ERE tho, other than to give some legitimacy to them in the eyes of the Europeans. Unless the Vatatzes want to conquer Iberia (implausible) the claim would only complicate negotiations in general.
If there is anything to add to the ongoing discussion, I personally believe that the Hospitallers should move somewhere outside the Mediterranean. Or at least beyond the reach and influence of the Lascarids. Maybe Crimea? Genoa will have a harder time now, and Kaffa, devastated by the Black Death, would be a good start for taking over the rest of the peninsula.
the hospitalar in Crimea would be fun asf, and the knights were allies to the Lascarids...
I would think Dusan would want Constantinople over Laskarid Greece.
nah, the ottomans are already on the mainland, and Dusan is in Macedonia-ish. I think Serbia and the Lascarids would fight over Epirus and Macedonia while the ottomans get around for a bit, waiting for their chance to strike.
 
Well, Charles' army is not a lethal threat, yet. The Lascarid lands in Calabria and Sicily are heavily fortified and awash with veterans (20 years of war against Frederick III helps), so they can trade for time, but that time has to spent wisely.
The threat comes from the sea.
Charles’ army is very much a lethal threat. It has besieged and raided the countryside of the Despotate’s most important cities like Messina previously.
The sea lanes are what make and can unmake the Despotate's power. Prior to the battle of Rhodes in April 1346 here, the critical issue was that as long as Rhodes was a threat to Greece, the Lascarids could not quite leverage their full resources, that is, the resources of Hellas, against Charles' naval threat.
End the threat of Rhodes and Zaccaria's fleet, and you can move freely around, and focus on Charles, in Sicily, cut off Angevins in Lepanto, Vonitsa, and Corfu. The reinforcements from Greece that took part in the battle of the Mela river did not arrive until after Rhodes was put under siege and removed as a threat.
Zaccharias’ fleet was constrained to the Aegean, not the Ionian. The actual Angevin Italian fleet that could constrain transportation between Greece and Italy was badly mauled in previous battles. Like I have been saying before the amount of damage that Zaccharias’ fleet could do was negligible compared to what Charles’ army could do to the Despotate’s lands in Sicily. Zaccharias could take a few isolated islands in the Aegean at most. They certainly could not hold the islands if the Angevins are defeated in Italy.
 
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Zaccharias’ fleet was constrained to the Aegean, not the Ionian. The actual Angevin Italian fleet that could constrain transportation between Greece and Italy was badly mauled in previous battles. Like I have been saying before the amount of damage that Zaccharias’ fleet could do was negligible compared to what Charles’ army could do to the Despotate’s lands in Sicily. Zaccharias could take a few isolated islands in the Aegean at most. They certainly could not hold the islands if the Angevins are defeated in Italy.
Thing is losing the Aegean is just as bad for the Lascarids, and if they could keep up with the Angevins on both fronts doing so is the better option if only to ensure that there is no collapse in both fronts.

like if a serious attack caused the Sicilian side to lose a bunch of ships I see them recalling the aegean navy to fight in Sicily, but otherwise spreading out is the better option.

Now that Zaccaria's fleet is sank the Aydinids are still present in the Aegean too, even if this means they could shift a portion of the navy over to Sicily and force an engagement that could allow the navies of the Lascarids to raid and blockade Naples.
 
Charles’ army is very much a lethal threat. It has besieged and raided the countryside of the Despotate’s most important cities like Messina previously.
It's only a lethal threat if roaming free, which it does not. Theodore and Alexios are lurking around, shadowing their every step, and it has to besiege its way into the Despotate.
Messina's fortifications and the geography makes it hard to take, and the time and resources needed to take it are not yet in Charles' reach; it could resist a year, or more, and Charles would be stuck in front of it, and predictably, Charles has been preferring the siege come the bad season, which something the Lascarids have been expecting and counting on many times over ever since Frederick's invasion decades before. Messina and Syracuse can hold more or less indefinitely as long as the sea lanes are open.
Besieging towns as well defended as Messina or Syracuse, with an army at your back as has been the case, negates your numerical superiority and mobility; that's a manageable threat.

On the sea, the Angevin fleet has got the upper hand up to now, but failed to act decisively, as the Lascarids conscientiously avoided battle, with some exception, which prevented the Angevins from blockading effectively either Messina or Syracuse (the strait of Messina and Malta are chokehold they cannot break without big difficulties).
Conversely, the Lascarids could not break into the Tyrrhenian sea and contest its waters. As things stood before the battle of the Mela river, they could not blockade Messina or any Lascarid port east of the Straits of Messina. It then makes Milazzo and Cefalu, the main prizes captured early by Charles are both on the north coast I note, the only area where they could blockade Lascarid ports from sea as well, and why it's on that coast, and not along the south coast they advanced.

Zaccharias’ fleet was constrained to the Aegean, not the Ionian. The actual Angevin Italian fleet that could constrain transportation between Greece and Italy was badly mauled in previous battles. Like I have been saying before the amount of damage that Zaccharias’ fleet could do was negligible compared to what Charles’ army could do to the Despotate’s lands in Sicily. Zaccharias could take a few isolated islands in the Aegean at most. They certainly could not hold the islands if the Angevins are defeated in Italy.
I'd not say that constrained, since they could use Corfu and Venitian ports in Methone and Crete; their main problem was that they could only move in bulk or be defeated in detail by enterprising Lascarid captains, and that's why Charles could not quite reinforce them.

As long as Zaccaria's fleet was in the region, it could threaten not only Chios, but Athens, Piraeus, and the coasts of the Peloponnese. And unlike Messina which could be kept supplied during Charles' siege, Chios could not and was in danger of falling when stores would run empty.
Compared to Charle's army in Sicily that could be confined to the north coast, and held at bay in front of Messina's walls, Zaccaria's fleet based in Rhodes presented a much more acute threat to the Despotate, and that would be worse if the fall of Chios was to free up his fleet and let it free range across the Aegean and pick islands one by one.
Besides economic disruption denying Lascarid much needed revenues, that would mean a lot of Lascarid forces would be tied in garrisons across Hellas to defend against raids.
Theodore could afford waiting out Charles in Sicily, but Michael in Greece did not have that time with Chios under strict blockade and siege. And once the siege of Chios was raised after the second battle of Chios thanks to Genoese reinforcements, just taking the whole fleet to Sicily and leaving Zaccaria and the Hospitalers safe in Rhodes risked just having them starting the siege of Chios all over again, because the second battle of Chios was not as decisive a victory as the battle of Rhodes would be months later.

An Angevin defeat in Italy by comparison had nothing fatal in it, they could rebuild their fleet, hire mercenary galleys like Grimaldi's, which they could not do in the Aegean with only Rhodes to fall back on. the Angevin fleet here was both the greatest danger and the easiest to deal with "for good", ie Rhodes gone, means the Aegean secured for good, while the Angevins defeated in the Tyrrhenian sea does not mean they won't come back later (if any indication, Frederick III was somewhat able to rebuild his fleet back despite multiple defeats against the Lascarids).
 
Now that Zaccaria's fleet is sank the Aydinids are still present in the Aegean too,
Their threat was a manageable one compared to the Angevins. After the battle of the Thermaic gulf in July 1344, they were left gutted.
At that battle, Michael engaged the Turks 1 to 4 (50 galleys to 200 Turkish ships), still won, and won big, and the loss ratio was 12:1 in his favor (10 ships lost in exchange for about 126 Aydinid ships sunk or captured).
So, with Chios and Rhodes in their possession, the Lascarids does not need as many ships to guard against any threat out of Smyrna or Ephesus; from the numbers in the previous post about Lascarid and Angevin fleets post Rhodes, the Lascarid-Genoese fleet could leave one or two dozen ships in the Aegean and still have at least parity and at best a slight numerical advantage in Sicilian waters (with Angevin numbers down to about 73, one dozen ships more or less does not seem not an overwhelming numerical advantage).
 
Their threat was a manageable one compared to the Angevins. After the battle of the Thermaic gulf in July 1344, they were left gutted.
At that battle, Michael engaged the Turks 1 to 4 (50 galleys to 200 Turkish ships), still won, and won big, and the loss ratio was 12:1 in his favor (10 ships lost in exchange for about 126 Aydinid ships sunk or captured).
So, with Chios and Rhodes in their possession, the Lascarids does not need as many ships to guard against any threat out of Smyrna or Ephesus; from the numbers in the previous post about Lascarid and Angevin fleets post Rhodes, the Lascarid-Genoese fleet could leave one or two dozen ships in the Aegean and still have at least parity and at best a slight numerical advantage in Sicilian waters (with Angevin numbers down to about 73, one dozen ships more or less does not seem not an overwhelming numerical advantage).
I do agree that after this the Lascarids should move a significant portion of the ships back to Sicily, but they can't bring their full navy to bear against the angevins anyways. And its not like the Lascarids shouldn't be thinking of a naval reconquest of islands under the beyliks...
 
It's only a lethal threat if roaming free, which it does not. Theodore and Alexios are lurking around, shadowing their every step, and it has to besiege its way into the Despotate.
In that sense, Zaccharias wasn’t roaming free either. He was constantly checked by the Philanthropenos fleet.
Messina's fortifications and the geography makes it hard to take, and the time and resources needed to take it are not yet in Charles' reach; it could resist a year, or more, and Charles would be stuck in front of it, and predictably, Charles has been preferring the siege come the bad season, which something the Lascarids have been expecting and counting on many times over ever since Frederick's invasion decades before. Messina and Syracuse can hold more or less indefinitely as long as the sea lanes are open.
Besieging towns as well defended as Messina or Syracuse, with an army at your back as has been the case, negates your numerical superiority and mobility; that's a manageable threat.
It’s not about Messina not falling.It’s about the countryside of Messina getting ravaged. The mere fact that a major city like Messina is besieged creates tremendous economic damage. People can’t farm on the countryside for example(farms etc are probably getting looted and things like olive trees that takes years to grow getting destroyed) and goods can’t move out by land.
On the sea, the Angevin fleet has got the upper hand up to now, but failed to act decisively, as the Lascarids conscientiously avoided battle, with some exception, which prevented the Angevins from blockading effectively either Messina or Syracuse (the strait of Messina and Malta are chokehold they cannot break without big difficulties).
Conversely, the Lascarids could not break into the Tyrrhenian sea and contest its waters. As things stood before the battle of the Mela river, they could not blockade Messina or any Lascarid port east of the Straits of Messina. It then makes Milazzo and Cefalu, the main prizes captured early by Charles are both on the north coast I note, the only area where they could blockade Lascarid ports from sea as well, and why it's on that coast, and not along the south coast they advanced.
I would argue they already gained the upper hand with the naval Battle of Messina. Almost half the Italian fleet got captured. A smaller number probably got sunk.
I'd not say that constrained, since they could use Corfu and Venitian ports in Methone and Crete; their main problem was that they could only move in bulk or be defeated in detail by enterprising Lascarid captains, and that's why Charles could not quite reinforce them.

As long as Zaccaria's fleet was in the region, it could threaten not only Chios, but Athens, Piraeus, and the coasts of the Peloponnese. And unlike Messina which could be kept supplied during Charles' siege, Chios could not and was in danger of falling when stores would run empty.
Compared to Charle's army in Sicily that could be confined to the north coast, and held at bay in front of Messina's walls, Zaccaria's fleet based in Rhodes presented a much more acute threat to the Despotate, and that would be worse if the fall of Chios was to free up his fleet and let it free range across the Aegean and pick islands one by one.
Besides economic disruption denying Lascarid much needed revenues, that would mean a lot of Lascarid forces would be tied in garrisons across Hellas to defend against raids.
And you can end all of that by just completely knocking Charles’ army out in war.If you can break Charles’ army, the entire war could potentially end then and there.
Theodore could afford waiting out Charles in Sicily, but Michael in Greece did not have that time with Chios under strict blockade and siege. And once the siege of Chios was raised after the second battle of Chios thanks to Genoese reinforcements, just taking the whole fleet to Sicily and leaving Zaccaria and the Hospitalers safe in Rhodes risked just having them starting the siege of Chios all over again, because the second battle of Chios was not as decisive a victory as the battle of Rhodes would be months later.
Theodore actually couldn’t wait. He didn’t wait either. He sallied out and fought Charles in a pitched battle. Hindsight is 20/20, but there is absolutely no guarantee that Theodore could beat Charles’ army at the Battle of Melas River. 17k vs 13k doesn’t give Theodore a significant advantage.It was a brutal fight.He still lost something like 3k vs 5.5k for the Angevins despite having a larger army that’s arguably more advanced in tactics than their opponents. He could have very much lost that battle and decisively. Losing the fleet would hurt, but a decisive loss of the field army could very much end the war for the Lascarids then and there.
An Angevin defeat in Italy by comparison had nothing fatal in it, they could rebuild their fleet, hire mercenary galleys like Grimaldi's, which they could not do in the Aegean with only Rhodes to fall back on. the Angevin fleet here was both the greatest danger and the easiest to deal with "for good", ie Rhodes gone, means the Aegean secured for good, while the Angevins defeated in the Tyrrhenian sea does not mean they won't come back later (if any indication, Frederick III was somewhat able to rebuild his fleet back despite multiple defeats against the Lascarids).
I would argue that rebuilding the fleet should be extremely hard. You have to draw on a limited pool of trained sailors. You can’t just throw random joes onto the ships. Frederick didn’t exactly rebuild his fleet. He was able to call for help from the Aragonese. Right now,I’m not sure who exactly could Charles call upon. The Genoese themselves are fighting against Charles While the Venetians are busy against the Hungarians.Charles’ allies the French are busy against the English.
 
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I would argue they already gained the upper hand with the naval Battle of Messina. Almost half the Italian fleet got captured. A smaller number probably got sunk.
And yet by the time of the battle of Rhodes a few months later, Lascarid spies show Charles' fleet at Naples around 60 ships. Hardly a decisive battle by this token.

And you can end all of that by just completely knocking Charles’ army out in war.If you can break Charles’ army, the entire war could potentially end then and there.
A land battle was rarely decisive at that time. Ask the French after Crécy, Poitiers and Azincourt...

Theodore actually couldn’t wait. He didn’t wait either. He sallied out and fought Charles in a pitched battle.
He did wait I'd say.
The battle of Melas river (August 1346) did not happen until after Zaccaria's fleet had been crushed (April 1346) in front of Rhodes and the Hospitalers were under siege, freeing up manpower of Hellas (4,000 soldiers, that's a third of the number fielded by Michael at Falani against Aydinids in September 1344) a for transfer to Sicily (June 1346).
 
This is not a bad match, but I wonder what advantages there are to Navarre. It's not like it'll stave off Aragon nor Castille, as the Desperate seem to be mostly at war at least until 1400, and Blanche wouldn't have a lot of French ties by virtue of marrying Alexandros. ig at least the French wouldn't see Alexandros II's descendants as 'outsiders'?
While, would be worth to be noted, that Alexandros/Sicilia wasn't the first nor the ideal wedding option, it wasn't bad either, and to grant the kingdom with a rich extra peninsular non French friend/ally. And, if the current monarch happens to die without heirs.
It would be probable that would let with an absent king that would let the internal affairs/administration on the ones currently doing it. So, it wouldn't be no change either on the way in what the Kingdom and its native magnates are currently managing it...
the claim would be effectively useless for a family mostly focused on the ERE tho, other than to give some legitimacy to them in the eyes of the Europeans. Unless the Vatatzes want to conquer Iberia (implausible) the claim would only complicate negotiations in general.
Perhaps, but aside that, from my perspéctive, at least, it would probably be among the possibilities either negotiated in the 'royal marriage agreement' and/or by that would have thought about when the bride was chosen. It's stated 'useless' would be only valid, for the Despotate eventual heir/heiress, but, not so much for all or some of the Despotate future ruler's eventuals 'spare' sons. Whether for getting them off providing them with a kingdom to rule or to getting lands/feuds concessions elsewhere as price to not to enforce their claim...

Finally, I think that shouldn't be underestimated that Navarra would be a good source of quality soldiers like was/its current dynasty the Counts of Évreux, nor the possibility for the Depostat to attract from there or to directly to recruit Navarrese infantrymen/mercenaries...
 
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Just thinking, there is quite a long road ahead from Navarre to Syracuse, a dangerous journey for Alexandros' bride. An ambassador traveling this far is one thing, a royal bride however, that's a consequential target.
The journey of Blanche might be ... interesting.
 
Just thinking, there is quite a long road ahead from Navarre to Syracuse, a dangerous journey for Alexandros' bride. An ambassador traveling this far is one thing, a royal bride however, that's a consequential target.
The journey of Blanche might be ... interesting.
Well, would seem so given that from all the possible routes, the shorter/'quicker' route through Aragon, might be best to avoid/discard it out, and supposing that also discard, too, the more large and for the time risky Biscay Bay-Atlantic-Mediterranean, so as well the French/Anjou one through Provence either...
So, I'd suppose that it would left to her and her retinue with the one through Galicia to Portuguese port of Lisbon and/or all the way to the Port Castilian Seville and from there sailing (heavily escorted by Despotat war galleys), the Mediterranean to Sicily, as perhaps the more probable/safer route options...
 
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