The Prophet's Voice Fell to Silence: No Islam TL

Hmm, I will consider it.

Initially I was thinking two or three more rulers down the line for the Tapurianis to go head to head with the Byzantines, but to me the political and social instability of the Heraclian dynasty by this point as a result of the POD seems plausible enough to make it earlier. Further, even with ATL beatings I am concerned that any ruler of either side showing restraint as Jamasphi displayed would be implausible-the Byzantines having so far been too busy fighting each other and everyone else to mount an offensive against the Tapurianis.

Though, even if a Redact the Persian attack I don't think the Byzantines will still be in a position to attack the Persians until the Persians are ready to and the map in 720CE will look like that regardless.
 
Hmm, I will consider it.

Initially I was thinking two or three more rulers down the line for the Tapurianis to go head to head with the Byzantines, but to me the political and social instability of the Heraclian dynasty by this point as a result of the POD seems plausible enough to make it earlier. Further, even with ATL beatings I am concerned that any ruler of either side showing restraint as Jamasphi displayed would be implausible-the Byzantines having so far been too busy fighting each other and everyone else to mount an offensive against the Tapurianis.

Though, even if a Redact the Persian attack I don't think the Byzantines will still be in a position to attack the Persians until the Persians are ready to and the map in 720CE will look like that regardless.

I don't think either is in a position to attack the other, that's the thing - both are exhausted, facing potential or actual civil war, and (given something like OTL) ripe for attacks by fresher powers.
 
I don't think either is in a position to attack the other, that's the thing - both are exhausted, facing potential or actual civil war, and (given something like OTL) ripe for attacks by fresher powers.

Hence why the war I had wasn't Persia Being a Boss, but cultivating the aid of the North Arabs, the Armenians, and Byzantine Dissidents in order to achieve a minor victoryland grab and why the Tarpurianis are unable and unwilling to repeat the Byzantine-Sassanid wars. The Sassanids managed to invade Egypt and cross Asia Minor to siege Constantinople. Likewise, his forces defeated in the region Constans is unable to re-engage after being forced out of the region after their defeats, similar to OTL Arab Invasions.
 
Hence why the war I had wasn't Persia Being a Boss, but cultivating the aid of the North Arabs, the Armenians, and Byzantine Dissidents in order to achieve a minor victoryland grab and why the Tarpurianis are unable and unwilling to repeat the Byzantine-Sassanid wars. The Sassanids managed to invade Egypt and cross Asia Minor to siege Constantinople. Likewise, his forces defeated in the region Constans is unable to re-engage after being forced out of the region after their defeats, similar to OTL Arab Invasions.

So the ruler who is up to his eyebrows in internal issues and issues with other powers than the Byzantines is able to think about something like this.

Seriously, why?
 
Heraclius in 622 isn't dealing with the issues that any Persian ruler would be dealing with in 641.

Besides all of this being invaded after and during a civil war ontop of a period of neglect under Maurice who was also fighting the Slavs and Avars. The Byzantine Empire had been in a constant state of warfare since 597 to 628. Ontop of everything that has happened to it following the POD.
Sassanid_empire_map.png


Though fine. How about what I am writing up now.
 
Besides all of this being invaded after and during a civil war ontop of a period of neglect under Maurice who was also fighting the Slavs and Avars. The Byzantine Empire had been in a constant state of warfare since 597 to 628. Ontop of everything that has happened to it following the POD.
The Sassanids had been fighting the Byzantines since 602. On top of their own internal turmoil after Khosrau II and the damaging burdens of the taxation he imposed (and the alienation of crown land that would take some doing to fix).

Neither side is in a position for significantly interfering in the affairs of the other.
 
Redacted...for now...
The Fall of the Sassanid and Heraclian Dynasties
by Wolfgang Fried



When historians look back on the Shahanshah Jamasphi depending on who is doing the long winded talking or book writing idolize or demonize the Daliamite nobleman who became Emperor of Persia. Often enough compare him to Philip of Macedon in that much like Philip, he was not a conqueror other then his exploits of uniting western Persia which in many cases he left in the hands of Tapuriani generals. He is far more known for organization, much as Philip created the military and political force that would aid his son, it was Jamasphi would reforged Persia under Tapuriani rule and created the series of political intrigues that would see his son bring the fight to the Byzantines. He was not a man of action, but a planner and as such he is fortunate to have realized several key factors about the Sassanids. Namely, that the confrontational and extremist policies of the Sassanids and the Byzantines kept each power interlocked in a constant struggle over the region. He is said to have commented "The Long War [ Either he is commenting on the confrontation between the West and East or the spiritual war of Light and Darkness so very common in Zoroastrianism and related religions] is a fire that consumes blood, flesh, gold, and steel. I did not start the fire. Long after I am gone it will keep going on and on [1]. All that I may do is dampen the blaze for my son and his son, and perhaps even his son."

Unlike, Philip it would be Jamasphi's grandson that would bring the fight to the Byzantines. Though, Jamasphi just laid down the foundations of Tapuriani rule, he, his son, and his grandson would spend the better part of their lives raising Persia to the greatness prior to the last war of the Sassanid Dynasty. From 634 to 650 Jamaphi and then his son, Vergsu (r. 641-669) would spend the period invading, pacifying, rebuilding, and defending the satrapies Assuristan, Abarshahr, Atropatene, Albania [2], Arabistan, Persian Armenia, Balasagan, and Susiana (essentially everything west of Fars and and the Kavir desert). The religious and diplomatic policies of Jamasphi would lay the groundwork for the expansion of Persian influence in Arabia, East Africa, and the Levant. These overtures mostly were encouragement and reorganization of the Arab tribes to form useful buffer states and to take care of Satraps that broken with the Sassanids. The Maka satrapy for example was given to the Lakhmids, it would eventually form the basis of modern Bahrain. With the Byzantines equally as exhausted as they were the only real threat that came to the Tapurianis during this period other then rival satraps was the Turkic Khazars who continues to raid from the Caucasus. The death of Jamasphi is attributed to a wound received fighting the Khazars in Albania. Jamasphi ended policies of persecution of the Church of the East, Manichean, and the Jews as a political policy to prevent religious revolts and to influence neighboring states, again the Lakhmids for example, but mostly the Byzantines. The exception to this rule was the Imperial Chaldecons and the Zurvians (heretical Zoroastrian faction), and the Magi who disagreed with his Mithrasism.

The Byzantines to the west meanwhile had their own hands full of issues the most worrisome being increasingly violent and frequent revolts in the East and Egypt Diocese. Pressure by the Avars and Slavs ontop of reinforcing the Exarchate of Ravenna against the Lombards who had pushed Byzantine control to the coastline occupied the time of Constans II. The most troublesome of all being that after the death of his Regent, Patriarch Paul II, and was increasingly overshadowed by the clique of Armenian descended generals, the Heraclian dynasty having been of Armenian descent. This trend persisted unto his reign where one could draw similarities with the young Yazdergerd III. Before he could conceive a heir he was assassinated by an unknown faction in 650. Historians point at numerous suspects, the Miaphysites, one of the Armenian generals, one of the generals opposing the Armenian faction, the Tapurianis hoping to destabilize the Byzantines, and so forth. The death of Constans ended the Heraclian Dynasty and plunged the Empire into civil war from 650-660, known as the Ten Years of Anarchy when a rapid succession of would-be-Emperors came to the throne before stabilizing.

Shahanshah Vergsu used this opportunity to finally turn his attention eastward and reclaim the vast and buffering territory that stretched to the Oxus river. Marching eastward from Tapuria into Mashhad he put down a conspiracy to overthrow him and continued to wrap up Fars. His advance to the Oxus river was stalled by the Turkics who since overrun the territory following the Sassanid collapse. Here he used the influence of the Church of the East and the Mani Leader to establish an allied Turkic state in region. He made no attempts to expand his influence across the Oxus, but did attempt to enter Baluchestan. but his advance was stalled and abandoned. The cause due to him falling ill. In the last few years of his reign he likewise orchestrated an official alliance with the Ghassanids and helped the Arab Jewish tribes to kick out the last Sassanid hold out in Arabia Felix.

Vergsu died of natural causes in 669 CE and was succeeded by his second son, Vergsu II. Vergsu II spent his early years of reign once more fighting the Khazars and helping aid the Lakhmid King against a usurper. Finally in 688, Vergsu felt that Persia had once more become strong enough to take on the Byzantines. From Ctesiphon he pulled John's grandson, also named John, to challenge Emperor Simonides as a Heraclian. Simonides had come to power from Thessalonika, having beaten back the Armenians and other challengers he returned to the policies of his predecessor Consantine III which greatly angered the populace of the east.

The 'public' pretext of his invasion being to seat John on the Imperial Throne, but his true motives would only be revealed much later.

While Persian forces gathered in Assuristan to march across the flat expanse of the region, Vergsu tapped the Arab kingdoms of the Lakhmids and the Ghassanids [The former having been a long time ally of the Persians, while the latter had turned to the Tapurianis during Constantine's Anti-Miaphysite reign] who invaded ahead of the main Persian force by invading Palestine and Syria. John's supporters in the Byzantine land rose up in revolt in the Diocese of the East, the Diocese of Egypt, and Armenia. Theodore's forces already in the region were soon swamped in the interior and consolidated their forces along the coastline-primarily in Alexandria, Antioch, Tyre, and Tripoli.

Vergsu lead his forces to the capture of the city of Nisbis after moving his army up the length of the Tigris and Euphrates and then marched south-eastward to Edessa where his forces were joined by Armenians loyal to John. By the time his forces marched on Antioch, Theodore's generals had landed in the region focusing on clearing a swath of territory from Tripoli to Antioch. During this period it was just like the War of Three Sons as the countryside descended into civil war as supporters of Theodore and of John fought, but given the unpopularity of his father and his age the supporters of John soon came on top flocking to John's banner or spieing on Theodores' forces.

As the main opposing armies marched toward a confrontation east of Antioch news arrived that the Arab allies had managed to siege Damascus and Homs-opening a corridor to attack Theodore's flank. In a last second decision, Theodores' commander split a portion of his army to confront the Arabs where they were defeated! The confusion of the defeat, local saboteurs gave conflicting reports of victory, retreat, and army movements, lead to a important defeat for Theodores as Vergsu won the Battle of Antioch and seized the Diocese of the East for John!

The news of the defeat river bated in nearby Egypt where the Augustal Prefect fled the Diocese leading to forces loyal to John to take over. As John called on a march to Constantinople, Vergsu's forces promptly halted. Confused at the events John went to Vergsu who answered that his forces would not march on Constantinople. No army had managed to take the city and he believed that his army would be wasted bringing the fight to Consantinople. Taking John aside Vergsu 'advised' that John should consolidate his new found gains before seeking to topple Theodore. Which may be more of a long term goal then he had expected. The Tapuriani motives for the conflict were at last revealed! Rather then waste their own forces marching on Constantinople and enforcing the region, Jamasphi before his death had decided that a Miaphysite Client Buffer state would be much more beneficial as it would allow the Tapurianis to dominate the region in more subtle methods.

With Lakhmid and Ghassanid armies marching through the underbelly of the Diocese of the East, the government installed in Alexandria already making 'less then utterly loyal' thoughts heard, and a large Persian force at the gates of Antioch, John had little choice.

He became Emperor John I, the Emperor in the East. The Byzantine Empire had become split between a Constantinople half and a Antioch half, a Chaldecon half, and a Non-Chaldecon half.


[1] -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g
[2]- Caucasus Satrapy
 
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The Period after the great war from 602 to 628 there was little to no revolts due to religion before and after. Using Monophysitism as a way to destabilize the east is pushing reality very far. There was no religious Revolt in the empire at the height of the Miaphysite-Chalcedon controversy. No side would ever accept Persian interference due to religion when they are practicing anti-Christian policy's. There is NO great Miaphysite-Chalcedon fissure to exploit yet. No emperor, even a ardent Chalcedon would want to stroke religious tention when trying to stabilize the empire.

Why should the Empire split and Persia remain whole while it problem were far worse. Persia only achieve the success it did be cause Heraclius's revolt diverted the empires army to fight a civil war. Only after Heraclius came to power did the Persian really gain success. It is two empire recovering and Persia looked the more to split even with an empire that has such tension. Remember throughout Miaphysite-Chalcedon issue neither Egypt or Syria ever revolt because of it, Thy were all roman. I would view the ATL if it was set in the late 7th or 8th century when you can have these regions possibly grow apart and a Persian prince over some decades slowly rebuilding there empire.
 
Taxes were the main issue at the time, but extended to religious issues earlier due to ATL Constantine III. Then the Ten Years of Anarchy and Simonides' reign. As I mentioned No Persian Anti-Christian policies.
 
I still find it had that this happen only 10 to 15 years after the 602 to 628 war. For me major revisions have to me made from the beginning. Stop trying to force things with the empire and have a more natural way of unfolding event. Every Roman paid high taxes and all regions would have revolted if it was unreasonable high.

after rereading earlier chapters I still thing event are forced and certain action unrealistic especially Persian interference. They should be knee deep in there own problems.

I do not like when ATL try to force the Late antiquity apart using Monophysitism. There was a general trend to regionalism but I accept a possible breakup in the 8th century. Miaphysites goal was not independence but control of the empire and there dogma as the official dogma of Christianity. What happens to the significant Chalcedon Christian population of the Syrian coast and mountain.

a little known fact is that Jerusalem had almost no Jews living there in late antiquity ERE.
 
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I still find it had that this happen only 10 to 15 years after the 602 to 628 war. For me major revisions have to me made from the beginning. Stop trying to force things with the empire and have a more natural way of unfolding event. Every Roman paid high taxes and all regions would have revolted if it was unreasonable high.

Well if you read my second post it happened over fifty years after the Byzantine-Sassanid War.
 
Since this is within a Century of the POD I am willing to give some slack and change things -One More Time-. I am more interested in the ramifications on the religious and cultural scale then the Byzantines survival, but the fact is empires rise and fall. The Byzantines will be destroyed at some point and just because they weren't attacked as in OTL doesn't mean they will be greater off then OTL.
 
So every thing that can go wrong for the empire must go wrong for you ATL to work and that is un realistic. Even if Constantine III punishes those who supported his enemies the problems described would only happen it the persecution is so bad it would also alienate his allies. The Miaphysites and Chalcedon church both wanted the division after the counsel of Chalcedon solved in there own way. IF he did refute his fathers comprise then thing return to what there was under Maurice. I do not Like ATL where the event in the empire is forced.

It took the Battle of Manzikert and the Fourth Crusade for the empire to fall. The ERE is not the type of empire you kill easy. Without Islam the chance the empire survive as an entity with Anatolia, Armenia, Syria, Egypt and north Africa increases a lot. Its immediate future would be dominated by Trying to solve it internal issue(a formula such as Monothelitism) and fighting Slavs, Avars and Lombards sprinkled with keeping the moors on side. I see the empire loosing there territories without Islam as a process taking centuries. The Persians will also face there own regionalism and a open eastern and northern Border.

one more thing is they survived to 1453 while facing Islam and a whole host of problems. There is also a strong roman identity that did not crack until the 19th century.
 
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The Byzantines will be destroyed at some point and just because they weren't attacked as in OTL doesn't mean they will be greater off then OTL.

Why?

I mean, I'm not saying you have to guarantee their survival to the present, but "they will be destroyed" - no matter what - and "just because they weren't attacked as in OTL doesn't mean that their situation won't be better than OTL" feels like a deliberate screw for screwing's own sake.
 
I am worried some people may feel that the Byzantines are the exception in OTL history. That their feats in OTL was due to the factoring in of events that came together, but only came together as the result of OTL. This being an ATL and they practically being at the epicenter of the POD their history must depart from OTL. Getting rid of the Heraclian Dynasty is the best start.

Besides, I am slightly favoring the Zoroastrians for their survival, but the Heraclian Dynasty already had its major fault lines that could have and did erupt. Pretty much the majority of it in my TL so far is that Heraclius had too many children. Constantine and Martina's rivalry over the succession turned into a war. Thanks to his fathers death, John becomes a much more known figure in history. I did butterfly Valentius' role in Constans' reign, but that doesn't mean another General could have not take his place.

Though when I do say the Byzantines will die I don't mean Immediatly and certainly not at the hands of the Tapurianis. Though, perhaps that the POD butterflies (for now) the Theme system's implication and their holding onto the East and Egypt will mean worse for them in the log run....
 
I am worried some people may feel that the Byzantines are the exception in OTL history. That their feats in OTL was due to the factoring in of events that came together, but only came together as the result of OTL. This being an ATL and they practically being at the epicenter of the POD their history must depart from OTL. Getting rid of the Heraclian Dynasty is the best start.

There history OTL is falling in 1453. No reason that an ATL has to direct events towards their demise.

Though when I do say the Byzantines will die I don't mean Immediatly and certainly not at the hands of the Tapurianis. Though, perhaps that the POD butterflies (for now) the Theme system's implication and their holding onto the East and Egypt will mean worse for them in the log run....

Yep, definitely a forced screw.
 
I'll just chime in and say that the ERE falling more quickly than OTL on account of not losing half their empire seems unlikely, as would the same happening to Persia. There is certainly no guarantee that the ERE will be a great power into modern times, but at this point in history they and Persia are the strongest nations in the world, and if the next 500 years of OTL history are anything to judge by the ERE is the healthier of the two powers, so Persia causing them to fall seems unlikely after the last three hundred years of inneffectively hammering away at them. Of course, the Persians did make it to Constantinople, but without a fleet the odds of them actually taking it are slim, and thus the odds of the empire falling to them are slim to match.

Honestly, you have set up a perfect scenario for the ERE's survival, so while their fall is certainly possible, it won't be easy, and should not be treated lightly or as something that was bound to happen just because their empire is old.
 
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