What if Jesus was a conqueror?
- Thread starter LibPrime
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I mean we don't even really know who Jesus was. Sure, we have the Bible, but that's not exactly a solid historical record. While there's suggestions of Jesus' existence, there's no historical source that gives meaningful insights into his personality, his capabilities or even what resources he might have had at his disposal.
If we assume Jesus was a normal man, I can't imagine he'd actually succeed at such rip roaring conquests. If he did decide to get militant, it's more likely he leads a local revolt in Judea that gets crushed like all the other Judean revolts that sprung up.
Even if you decide to put complete faith in the Bible, you're still dealing with "the son of God", a person who could perform miracles and perhaps even rise from the dead in some shape or form. Who's to say how his conquests would have gone? It's unfathomable to create a grounded, meaningful scenario on someone so intertwined with religious dogma.
If we assume Jesus was a normal man, I can't imagine he'd actually succeed at such rip roaring conquests. If he did decide to get militant, it's more likely he leads a local revolt in Judea that gets crushed like all the other Judean revolts that sprung up.
Even if you decide to put complete faith in the Bible, you're still dealing with "the son of God", a person who could perform miracles and perhaps even rise from the dead in some shape or form. Who's to say how his conquests would have gone? It's unfathomable to create a grounded, meaningful scenario on someone so intertwined with religious dogma.
Taking the view that the historical Jesus was a mortal man and nothing more:
- The POD can't be after the crucifixion, because it's hard to rebel after you're dead.
- If your POD is prior to crucifixion, he'd probably still get beaten and end up killed. Jesus was a reasonably controversial itinerant preacher with a small band of followers- Jewish rebellions against Rome with a much wider base of support ended in defeat.
Sometime after the crucifixion would require the ASB forum. To be clear, that's not a dig at Christianity, but more that it's the more appropriate forum when it comes to magic.
IIRC, there was a short story on if Jesus tried leading a rebellion.
The upshot as I remember it was it gets defeated, he’s executed with little to no fanfare, and it’s strongly implied that if he’s remembered at all it’ll be as another failed would-be rebel.
The upshot as I remember it was it gets defeated, he’s executed with little to no fanfare, and it’s strongly implied that if he’s remembered at all it’ll be as another failed would-be rebel.
I agree with most people here thinking, Kung Fu, Rebel Jesus would fall flat on his face.
But to take the OP seriously, minus the post crucifixion, Jesus' earthly kingdom would probably be reconquered eventually but if it wasn't, Jesus would be the "enemy" of Rome and his followers would be viewed with more suspicion and likely his faith would be confined to within his empire.
The term Christ's bloody borders would apply in this tl.
But to take the OP seriously, minus the post crucifixion, Jesus' earthly kingdom would probably be reconquered eventually but if it wasn't, Jesus would be the "enemy" of Rome and his followers would be viewed with more suspicion and likely his faith would be confined to within his empire.
The term Christ's bloody borders would apply in this tl.
If we take the Biblical account seriously, this would only mean that Jesus had given in to Satan's Temptation to become a Earthly king. In a Christian framework, this would be like a Second Fall, a non redeemable one. "Disaster" does not even begin to describe the matter. The Light went into the Darkness and turned itself off.
In purely human terms, however, I agree with other posters. A rebellious Jesus with ambitions of Earthly power would be most likely crushed and largely forgotten.
In purely human terms, however, I agree with other posters. A rebellious Jesus with ambitions of Earthly power would be most likely crushed and largely forgotten.
If we take the Biblical account seriously, this clearly indicates that we're in a universe where God had a different plan for Jesus than the one the Bible says he had in this universe. One where Jesus is more like a perfected David or Saul than the Jesus from our universe. Presuming this, well, the Romans are kind of fucked, since after all they're fighting the all-powerful, all-knowing God of the world; they obviously can't win this.
I suppose the outcome of this Biblical (or near-Biblical) Jesus revolting against Rome depends on just what God's actual plan is--just to restore the Kingdom of Israel, perfected (i.e., turn it into something like the various visions of the New Jerusalem found in the Bible)? Well, that probably has relatively little impact in the short term, actually--the angels or whomever push the new Israel to the borders that God wants it to have, then just sit there and defend it. Those borders encompass a substantial swathe of the eastern Mediterranean coast, but ultimately they don't really threaten the Romans so much. The Romans probably get a bloody nose a few times, then realize that they're not going to retake Israel and switch to a more diplomatic mode. In the longer term, having an apparently divine power on Earth will very likely cause a lot of people to convert to Judaism--I mean, you can go to Jerusalem and see the power and might of the Hebrew God, it's going to be a very convincing and powerful argument. Doubly so if Jesus just sticks around being King of Israel forever. Judaism itself will obviously look different, with Jesus clearly being accepted as the Messiah and an extremely different series of historical developments from this point onwards--instead of being a minority religion decimated and driven out of its own homeland by a series of failed uprisings, it will have literally divine sanction for its truth and power.
On the other hand, suppose God's plan was instead to conquer the world. He got tired of all of this nudging and decided to do some right spanking. Well, that's going to end badly for everyone except the Jews, probably (and even then only most of the Jews). Again, they're fighting the all-powerful, all-knowing God; there's no way that they can win against whatever plagues and famines and armies of angels and softened or hardened hearts he can bring. I wouldn't expect it to take more than decades for the Kingdom of God to encompass the entire world. Like in the other scenario, this will certainly lead to the Jesus branch of Judaism becoming dominant, Jesus being universally accepted as the Jewish Messiah, and widespread conversion--more widespread than in the other case, of course, since deus vult, so to speak.
There was a short story buried in another, similar thread somewhere on this forum some time back that had Jesus carving out a kingdom or empire in the east, sustained by armies of angels and the like, which probably pretty well spells out the ASB/Biblical version of what this would look like. It even had Jesus coming back angry from the Crucifixion.
Actually I'm aware of two separate instances of literary works where this is the premise:
Last Starship From Earth by John Boyd which is SF/AH book about a world in which Jesus lead a revolution against the Roman Empire but was shot with a crossbow (which became the symbol of Christianity) after conquering Rome. In retrospect it's neither good SF or good AH but I did enjoy it enough when I was 13 to finish it. I guess I just had too much free time and too little taste back then.
Then there are dark fantasy books about Inquisitor Mordimer Madderdin by Polish author Jacek Piekara which take place in ATL Late Medieval/Early Modern Germany in a world where Jesus miraculusly descended from the cross and toghter with the Apostles slaughtered his was from Jerusalem to Rome. There is more to this but that's big spoilers (although I don't think that any of these books were ever translated into English...).
Last Starship From Earth by John Boyd which is SF/AH book about a world in which Jesus lead a revolution against the Roman Empire but was shot with a crossbow (which became the symbol of Christianity) after conquering Rome. In retrospect it's neither good SF or good AH but I did enjoy it enough when I was 13 to finish it. I guess I just had too much free time and too little taste back then.
Then there are dark fantasy books about Inquisitor Mordimer Madderdin by Polish author Jacek Piekara which take place in ATL Late Medieval/Early Modern Germany in a world where Jesus miraculusly descended from the cross and toghter with the Apostles slaughtered his was from Jerusalem to Rome. There is more to this but that's big spoilers (although I don't think that any of these books were ever translated into English...).
We don't know almost anything about historic Jesus and all what is written to Bible is made decades later. But it seems that such things were totally against his nature.
But if Jesus would had managed to rise people to revolt, that would had crushed like a bug. We wouldn't even know abut Jesus and his rebellion would be just short footnote on history books. There is not way how you revolt against ROmans and succeed. Many have tried and probably as many have failed and if they are captured alive, they were crucifixed.
World would be totally unrecognsible.
But if Jesus would had managed to rise people to revolt, that would had crushed like a bug. We wouldn't even know abut Jesus and his rebellion would be just short footnote on history books. There is not way how you revolt against ROmans and succeed. Many have tried and probably as many have failed and if they are captured alive, they were crucifixed.
World would be totally unrecognsible.
If we consider he rebelled and conquered Judea, Syria and Anatolia, it is highly unlikely that Rome will ever convert to christianity. it is extremely rare for a country to adopt a person who gave such an insult to their already established empire as a saint, let alone, the son of god. And with rome not being converted, Christianity will find it difficult to spread to the wider world and be crushed by the islamic conquests in the later centuries. it is precisely due to the reason that he was a martyr that he was easy to accept.
in history, religions spread either by total conquest of a people (early islamic and christian conquests), benign conversion of the ruling monarch or the elite followed by the average citizens by decree ( buddhist conversion of asia, and some later conversions of Islam and christianity).
i am unaware of a nation/empire adopting the religion of a rebel/conquer without having totally being conquered.
Given that by all accounts you couldn't swing a cat in Judea without hitting a jewish preacher that was flavour-of-the-day doing this time period
Assuming if Jesus is a Vampire (drink of my blood and have eternal life), the "faith" would spread quickly but I kinda suspect that's not what you mean.
The resurrection is something that doesn't happen in normal life and is not plausible by the normal rules of life. Belief that it happened is a personal matter but not something we can all agree on, like WW2 happened or Rome had an Empire.
I am only mocking to make you understand the context, that it belongs in ASB.
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