What if World War 2 was fought against Communism?

[johnreiter]

Let's say in this timeline, that Stalin is more aggressive and Hitler is more patient. There is no Pact of Steel, and the Soviet Union starts World War 2 by invading Poland and Finland. France and Britain ally with Germany and Japan against the Soviet Union, and their communist sympathizers (like Mao).

How would the war go? And what would the post-war world be like, assuming it ends with Communism eradicated like Fascism was, and the Earth divided between the Fascist and Liberal ideologies?

 

[BloopsThePurple]

Well I'm pretty confident the USSR would lose. As for what the post-war world would look like, let's ask the Man of Steel himself: "What would happen if capital succeeded in smashing the Republic of Soviets? There would set in an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat, the positions of international communism would be lost."

The tendency for imperialist powers to go to war as well as for fascist powers to bite off more than they could chew would probably lead to WW3. This would likely be ended with nuclear weapons, or fought with them if you're feeling spicy. Exploitation would be immense in this timeline even compared to ours, and without a communist boogeyman, social democratic reforms would be less common. If the fascist regimes aren't destroyed in a world war, they might follow the same fate as Portugal - a leftist military coup following the loss of overseas colonies.

The communist movement would of course change its strategy. Perhaps you would see the re-emergence of the idea that the revolution must be global and occur in the advanced capitalist countries. Or maybe with the development of thermonuclear weapons, you would see communist and anti-colonial governments make it their priority to acquire nuclear arms to prevent succumbing to the same fate as the USSR.

 

[Thon Taddeo]

You would need to have very different leadership in Berlin and Moscow for this to occur.

 

[Lalli]

You have commit brain transplantation to Stalin before he even would think invading Europe without great powers being distracted/fighting each others. OTL Stalin was extremely paranoid and cautious with the west and he was certain that he couldn't do anything for East Europe without there being some another war. It is reason why he made M-R Pact with Germans and waited Germany to begin its invasion.

 

[johnreiter]

You have commit brain transplantation to Stalin before he even would think invading Europe without great powers being distracted/fighting each others. OTL Stalin was extremely paranoid and cautious with the west and he was certain that he couldn't do anything for East Europe without there being some another war. It is reason why he made M-R Pact with Germans and waited Germany to begin its invasion.

Perhaps it would be more plausible with Trotsky leading the USSR instead?

 

[Lalli]

Perhaps it would be more plausible with Trotsky leading the USSR instead?

Trotsky hadn't ever real chances to rise as premier of USSR. And he was ratherly more supportive of foreign communist/socialist movements but not sure if even he would had invaded Europe.

 

[Eric C Johnson]

Well I'm pretty confident the USSR would lose

Not quite so sure about that. But first my premise.
Stalin is forced to become more aggressive beginning in March 1936 when the Rheinland is reoccupied without opposition by the French. There is a spontaneous outpouring of of sentiment by military and civilian segment of Soviet Society that Hitler must be stopped, and the USSR will inevitably be forced to act alone. Although Stalinist purges commence, they quickly lose credibility when a number of those placed on show trial are the loudest in demanding war with Nazi Germany. Stalin's terror grip is loosened.
Hitler's patience is forced in September 1938, when prior to Munich the British and French begin mobilization, and at the Four-Power Meeting there coldly inform Hitler that Czechoslovakia is inviolate, a state of war will exist if German forces cross the border. As Hitler continues to pressure, German generals shrink from the prospect of war. In rapid succession, generals, including key divisional commanders claim Hitler has broken his oath to the German State, and therefore they are released from their own Fuhrereid. The balance of power shifts in favour of the German Armed Forces.
Despite this, in March 1939, the Germans force the Lithuanians to return Memelland. Stalin responds by forcing Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to accept Soviet troops on their soil the following month.

I'll call this The Premise, and allow others to chirp in freely on its plausibility.

In August 1939, Stalin demands that Finland and Poland also allow the stationing of Soviet troops on their territory, and both refuse. On 1 September 1939, the Soviets cross the borders of both nations, and Germany instantaneously declares war. Poland, much to their dismay, are forced to have Hitler as an ally. Two days later both Great Britain and France declare war, but neither exerts much effort than sending expeditionary forces to Finland to restore its territorial integrity and perhaps limited gains such as the capture of Leningrad, or liberation of the Baltic States. They certainly won't accept the risks of mass casualties a march on Moscow entail. Nowhere else do British or French territories border the USSR. London and Paris will break out the hors d'oeuvres and Irish Whiskey and watch the German and Russian casualties mount. Japan will certainly not end its war in China in favour of a conquest of Siberia; it will limit the efforts of the Kwangtung Army to border adjustments around Manchuria.

I call this The Outcome, and offer it for the same critique.

 

[Dorknought]

Germany would just be a meat shield for the UK and French. They wont join. "Dommage qu'ils ne peuvent pas perdre tous les deux" (Too bad they can't both lose)

 

[Eric C Johnson]

Germany would just be a meat shield for the UK and French. They wont join. "Dommage qu'ils ne peuvent pas perdre tous les deux" (Too bad they can't both lose)

That might be true, but it is also counter to the thesis of the thread:

Let's say in this timeline, that Stalin is more aggressive and Hitler is more patient. There is no Pact of Steel, and the Soviet Union starts World War 2 by invading Poland and Finland. France and Britain ally with Germany and Japan against the Soviet Union, and their communist sympathizers (like Mao).

 

[Lalli]

That might be true, but it is also counter to the thesis of the thread:

I think too that at least France just would let Germans and Soviets kill each others and just take lot of pop corns. Why they would want to intervene to help Germany?

 

[johnreiter]

I think too that at least France just would let Germans and Soviets kill each others and just take lot of pop corns. Why they would want to intervene to help Germany?

Well, I don't think France would actually want Russia to defeat Germany. That would give the Communists complete control over central and eastern Europe and put them right on the French's doorstep. France lived through the First Red Scare, just like everybody else. Most of the world feared the communists at least as much or more than the fascists.

Ideally, for the French, they'd like to see Russia lose, and Germany be so exhausted that they have no power to dictate terms at the peace afterwards. Frankly, I don't think Germany would care. They don't want to fight side-by-side with the French anymore than the French want to fight side-by-side with them. As long as their trade remains uninterrupted, that's all the contribute they will really want from France.

 

[johnreiter]

Japan will certainly not end its war in China in favour of a conquest of Siberia; it will limit the efforts of the Kwangtung Army to border adjustments around Manchuria.

War, in the is case, would be breaking out either before or right around the time of the Battle of Khalkhin Gol. At this point, the Japanese were still very much in favor of the Strike North Plan, to invade and conquer eastern Russia. I think that when they see all the great powers of Europe fighting Russia on one front, they will quickly decided to jump on the winning side since there may never be a better chance to get the territory they want from the Russians

 

[ric350]

How about this - Shortly after the Munich Agreement, Hitler is assassinated by a gunman who is found to be a communist, and has ties (albeit tentative) to the NKVD. Goring takes over the government and begins a rabid anti-communist ”kristallnacht”. In other words, communists replace Jews as the primary Nazi focus of hatred.
Goring presents evidence to the Poles that Stalin has intentions of attacking Poland, and tried to entice Hitler to join, in return for continuing economic/resource aid. Pointing to the unprovoked Soviet invasion of their country 15 years earlier, Goring asks the Poles to join Germany in a crusade to rid the world of the communist threat.
This turn of events, causes Britain and France to rethink their views on Germany, as the spread of communism is still a real threat to their ruling classes. In the US, Germany’s anti-communist stance is applauded by those of power and influence. A “better dead than Red” atmosphere begins to grow.
Meanwhile, the Japanese see an opportunity of their own, and begin plans to strike Russia as well (oh, while crossing a street in Tokyo, Richard Sorge is struck by car and dies in hospital a few days later.)
Seeing these developments, Stalin shifts his paranoia into ”plaid”. He orders the Soviet army to mobilize and for armament production to go into high gear. Any talk to the contrary is met with “extreme prejudice“.
This is all viewed in the west as confirmation of Soviet intentions, and they respond in kind. With WW1 still a vivid memory, WW2 is about to begin.

ric359

 

[Garrison]

That might be true, but it is also counter to the thesis of the thread:

Which highlights the flaw in the thesis. Nazi Germany has made far too many enemies for the British and French to go to war in support of them. And let's not forget the general attitude of pacifism prevalent in Britain. The Nazis and the Soviets fighting to exhaustion is basically the ideal scenario for the British and French. Of course the more basic issue is that Stalin is never going to strike first and I doubt any other Soviet leader is going to be more aggressive in practice.

 

[Bellacinos]

If you have a far right government in Germany rise that is as anti communist as the Nazis but not as psychotic, and you have a more aggressive leader take control of the USSR, I can definitely see a western backed Germany being used to defeat the USSR.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Honestly I suspect the French and British would kick back continue to rearm and make a metric crapload of money selling stuff to Germany

 

[Eric C Johnson]

Which highlights the flaw in the thesis. Nazi Germany has made far too many enemies for the British and French to go to war in support of them. And let's not forget the general attitude of pacifism prevalent in Britain. The Nazis and the Soviets fighting to exhaustion is basically the ideal scenario for the British and French. Of course the more basic issue is that Stalin is never going to strike first and I doubt any other Soviet leader is going to be more aggressive in practice.

How far away is your opinion from this?

London and Paris will break out the hors d'oeuvres and Irish Whiskey and watch the German and Russian casualties mount.

Open question, are the British/French going to war in support of Germany? Or in support of Finland and against Stalin's Communism?

 

[Garrison]

How far away is your opinion from this?

Open question, are the British/French going to war in support of Germany? Or in support of Finland and against Stalin's Communism?

They might well support Finland but the idea of spending British taxpayers money on supporting the Germans is a nonstarter and they certainly won't be prepared to risk British lives to aid the Germans or to stop bolshevism. Remember that the British tried invading the USSR back in 1919 and it was a dismal failure.