WI:Aftermath if Mexico 'beats' the US in the Mexican-American War?

This is also sort of an AHC for those want to try to figure out how it happens.

Basically, the premise I'm working with here at least is that at minimum, Mexico is able to do enough fighting back that the war drags into a stalemate, or who knows, maybe the Mexicans do something surprising somewhere.

What are the possible effects for the aftermath if somehow the US isn't able to win the Mexican-American war?
 

mad orc

Banned
Ah ,one more competitor to my timeline .:cool:;):cool:

I don't think that there would be much difference .
Maybe Santa Anna's personal power would increase .But surely ,the US will come back to take revenge and the next time ,they are gonna win no matter what you do .
 
Had the Mexicans not suffered such a humiliating defeat, i could see Britain taking advantage of it and further expanding its influence across Central America (they did colonize Belize and eastern Nicaragua IOTL, after all).
 

Aphrodite

Banned
A very ugly round two fifteen years later. Mexico wouldn't get off as easy as they did in OTL


Round two during the American civil war?

If Mexico is strong enough to resist America in 1848, then it will be intervening in the American civil war

It might totally change things. America breaks apart and Central America reunites
 
A very ugly round two fifteen years later. Mexico wouldn't get off as easy as they did in OTL
Why? Explain please. They lost the first time dispelling completely the myth of manifest destiny. Why would there be a second round? I'm not saying there would not be a second round. Only requiring you to say what would prompt it other than naked aggression?
 
Why? Explain please. They lost the first time dispelling completely the myth of manifest destiny. Why would there be a second round? I'm not saying there would not be a second round. Only requiring you to say what would prompt it other than naked aggression?
You just answered your own question. Naked aggression. That's how American history worked... 7 of the 13 original colonies had coast-to-coast claims, you MAY be right about dispelling Manifest Destiny but I doubt one loss to Mexico would undo literally 240 years of "it's our right to get to the Pacific Ocean" (Jamestown, VA 1607, Albany, NY 1609; therefore 240 years to 1848). One cause of a rematch could be if the Mormons still moved to Utah (Deseret) and in the aftermath of an American loss they are discriminated against and as ex-pat Americans they turn to the US, a common theme in US history (from Florida, Texas, Hawai'i, Caribbean protectorates, the Barbary Coast, Boxer Rebellion China, and even Sumatra). Gold discovery simply means the US is going to be even more interested, and no the Mexicans won't have a chance to develop the fields quick enough to make the gold reserves matter in a war against the US. The US had naval squadrons in the Pacific and Asia (Pacific Squadron, East India Squadron, Asiatic Squadron/Fleet; and their unification as the Pacific Fleet) long before having any ports on the Pacific Ocean, in 1848 they finally have uncontested control of Oregon giving the US even more reason for wanting a rematch with Mexico, they don't want Mexico to begin to threaten Oregon and use it as an excuse to repudiate the Adams-Onis Treaty (Spanish-US treaty which established the border between US and future Mexico and in which Spain's claim to Oregon was given to the US) and the earlier Nootka Convention (with Britain).

Despite the small US navy and military compared to Mexico or Chile (an example given in AH.com many times as an example of a Western Hemisphere greater than US power) I never read about Mexico or Chile sending naval vessels and marines to fight Barbary Pirates in the Mediterranean in the 1790s/1800s or pirates in Sumatra twice in the 1830s. The US had naval operations and a squadron along the west coast of Africa (beginning in 1819, more serious and effective starting in 1842) and another squadron along Brazil's coast starting in 1826. The fact that the US had ambitions and interests throughout the world, whereas Mexico lacked such interests meant the US would not take a loss in the same demoralizing manner that Mexico took it in OTL (look at how the US saw the War of 1812 as a "victory"; Americans are delusional). And though the US having a "head start" in having independence much earlier, Mexico only having been independent for 30 years at the time of the 1848 war, the fact of the matter is that the US sent the ship Empress of China to China only 1 year after independence and fought the Barbary pirates only 20 years after independence and took on the British Empire 30 years after independence. So, it isn't that Mexico wasn't prepared, it simply didn't have the "culture" of dominating the world's oceans that the American "British spoiled child" grew up with while Mexico had the restrictions of not being allowed to develop a trade and shipping culture under Spain; in fact it would be the British putting those same restrictions on the Americans that the Spanish already had on their colonies that led to the very independence of the US. So, in conclusion- another war is inevitable because as Alfred Thayer Mahan would point out in The Influence of Sea-Power Upon History 1660-1783 control of the sea through what we would now call soft-power merchant marine and trade along with hard power naval forces (and marines) determines outcomes. The US was a child growing up in the midst of that sea power influence on history, Mexico was not; the US grew into an adult with that sea power, Mexico did not. The US knew it wanted to be like Britain, Mexico wanted to be the France of the Continent with a strong army component and dominance (in Central America); and unfortunately the US won out even though the border was nothing like Britain/France and yet for the same reason England/Britain won out over France for dominance.
 
Does this give Clay the the Whitehouse? or are the antiwar crowd called traitors and blamed for the loss?
 

mad orc

Banned
So the conclusion is that

Unless you took the time to develop your sea power in 1600-1783
you wouldn't be able to call yourself the greatest of powers in the 19th and 20th centuries(Except if you are Russia ,though Siberia is comparable to the sea)

Its like _

Unless you do your homework in childhood
You wouldn't be able to become successful ahead !!!
 
Why? Explain please. They lost the first time dispelling completely the myth of manifest destiny. Why would there be a second round? I'm not saying there would not be a second round. Only requiring you to say what would prompt it other than naked aggression?
There's the avenging national Honor thing, the lure of untapped western resources, then there's the slaves escaping to Mexico business and there's the whole "we done got beat by brown people" thing , racist attitudes of the time couldn't let that go unavenged.
 
So the conclusion is that

Unless you took the time to develop your sea power in 1600-1783
you wouldn't be able to call yourself the greatest of powers in the 19th and 20th centuries(Except if you are Russia ,though Siberia is comparable to the sea)

Its like _

Unless you do your homework in childhood
You wouldn't be able to become successful ahead !!!
Yes, though the time period doesnt matter, 1600-1783 is simply the time period covered by Mahan's book... don't know if you understood that, though I would say the concept of sea power deciding superpowers and the future of who will win wars begins retrospectively with Portuguese in the 1490/1500s who realized if they control the seas around Africa and the Indian Ocean they could in the future rule, intimidate, and decide the future of anything in the area (which was true, however the British and Dutch simply became better at it).

The idea of developing sea power to become a regional or world power plays out through out history- Russia as well learned the lessons of a developed sea power, it was Peter the Great who modernized the Russian fleet and this was a defining point in Russian history to make the nation respectable in European eyes (more than making the men shave their beards), and then when Japan crushed Russia's Pacific fleet at Vladivostok, that showed Japan's preeminence and ability to join the Western Powers as an equal (Japan's fleet was sent to the Mediterranean during WWI to free up British ships to face Germany and patrol the Atlantic, another defining point of projecting sea power giving a nation prestige and giving the population a source of pride and ambition). Israel, a nation not threatened by sea, has many nuclear subs. The PRC is just now sending their fleet on world tours, similar to the Great White Fleet of Perry's that opened Japan, among other things. And yes I like your analogy to doing homework, which the PRC has literally done if you look at their economic and military decisions since 1991 you can see a direct parallel in following the steps the US took in becoming a world power, and the manner in which the US overtook Britain and avoiding the parallel path that Bismark and Imperial Germany took in attempting to overtake Britain in geopolitical circles which failed spectacularly thanks to wrong decisions (the PRC has intentionally avoided a parallel to the Morocco Crisis in particular).
 
A very ugly round two fifteen years later. Mexico wouldn't get off as easy as they did in OTL

1846-1848

+15

1861-1863

That'd be during the American Civil War, assuming it happened around the same time.

Which, coindicentally, if Mexico won the war, might be something that brings it on faster

Now, in such a situation, I could see an independent CSA trying to take on Mexico, but then at that point the US would have a vested interest in allying with Mexico to beat up the CSA.
 
Uh, guys... if Mexico somehow won the war, there’s no guarantee the Civil War would even happen, let alone it happening at exactly the same time as OTL. That war was arguably the main impetus for all the troubles of the 1850s, and the butterflies this would cause could be incredible.
 
Define "win"

With a POD during or a few years before the war, Mexico's fate was pretty much guaranteed. In fact, it was only thanks to a few US blunders and diplomatic screw-ups that the US didn't also annex Sonora. I don't think a Mexican victory is anyway near possible, they were outgunned and outnumbered, fighting over territories that didn't even want to be part of Mexico in the first place. Mexico couldn't even keep Texas from succeeding. It took them 7 years just to defeat Yucatan, and they only managed that because Yucatan couldn't defeat the natives. There was no possible way that Mexico could actually walk away from a war with the United States, already a formidable power, with anything even resembling a victory. At absolute best, Mexico may extend the duration of the war and keep more of their territory, with a line of latitude being drawn between the modern cities of Los Angeles and San Diego. Anything further north than that is ASB.
 
I'm talking about getting their army beaten to the extent that it can't put down rebellion in the Yukatan and lose more territory.
They got their army beaten so badly that Mexico, after the war was over, became the equivalent of Iraq in 2003 after the US beat that nation. The US didn't just beat Mexico, sign a treaty and leave; they occupied the nation after the war. It was the decision of the US that Yucatan would not be independent, and more importantly Yucatan asked to rejoin Mexico after the US refused to help them in their own civil war against the natives.
 
I don't think a Mexican victory is anyway near possible, they were outgunned and outnumbered, fighting over territories that didn't even want to be part of Mexico in the first place. Mexico couldn't even keep Texas from succeeding. It took them 7 years just to defeat Yucatan, and they only managed that because Yucatan couldn't defeat the natives. There was no possible way that Mexico could actually walk away from a war with the United States, already a formidable power, with anything even resembling a victory.

True, Mexico was weak. But I don’t think the US was a formidable as you imply. Rather, the USA was relatively formidable in the minor league sense and comfortably far away from Europe- home of the military major leagues and big wars against viable opponents. The successes of the American Revolution noted, invasions of foreign nations via expeditionary forces are tricky, even for experts (Napoleon takes the witness stand). The US invasion Canada, though not a Moscow disaster, did not go so well.

In short, the small US army and supporting “fair weather” militias and security contractors were taking a big risk when they landed in Veracruz and marched west into the Mexican heartland. I don’t think it would take ASB level intervention to give that force a nasty surprise outside of Mexico City and bog down the grab bag of invasion forces marching overland from Texas.

Sure, some things would have to change….

- Mexicans in Mexico proper would need to perceive the war as the defense of home, culture and religion- and be willing to pay for that defense in fatalities.

- The Mexicans would need put their pride aside, seek and actually heed expert advice. Fortunately, such advice was available in Europe in the form of expert military officers from UK, France, Italians states doubling as security advisors / combat leaders for hire.

I am thinking….

France and UK perceive US extraterritorial hungers as threats to their holdings in the Caribbean, Belize, and as a threat to the UK Dominion of Canada. One, or both nations, provides Mexico with teams of expert advisors. Mexico is also allowed to purchase a certain number of modern artillery and muskets at “friendship prices” with “friendship” bonus items. The Mexican populace mobilizes for a people’s war to be fought in Mexico proper, not in fringe territories of dubious loyalties. The people' s units are leavened by some well-trained units under expert advice.

The inland result is Napoleon on a smaller scale. Sure, the US force is better trained and better led- but that does not matter much in the attrition battles on the way to Mexico City. There are a lot of lean, mean bushwar fighters in US ranks, but this is not a bush war of manuver against numerically doomed native american foes. Rather, the war is fixed attrition battles against a numerically strong opponent- very un bush like and very disturbing to bush fighters.

Each "victory" takes a toll on the invaders. The morale of U.S. militias and security contractors starts to waiver. Things get bad outside Mexico City where still another people's army leavened by additional well trained and well advised / led Mexican forces is waiting. They get really bad on the retreat back- illness, thirst, desertions, guerillas, contaminated wells, a pursuing Mexican army that does not care about losing individual battles, Lancers going after stragglers... .
 
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