WI Napoleon Serves the Ottoman Empire

Yelnoc · Mar 29, 2011

I was reading through Wikipedia and across this interesting tidbit on Napoleon's page.

He was moved to the Bureau of Topography of the Committee of Public Safety and sought, unsuccessfully, to be transferred to Constantinople in order to offer his services to the Sultan.

It's got a citation and I'm inclined to believe its fact, or at least based in fact. So, what if Napoleon's request is granted and he is sent east to fight for the Ottoman Sultan? Will the royalist rebels succeed in overthrowing the Directory in October? How will the history of France turn without Napoleon at this crucial juncture? Also, will the military genius make a mark on the east?

Color-Copycat · Mar 29, 2011

I think a lot of Napoleon's success on the battlefield was connected to his ability to raise large conscript armies. I think the Ottomans (or was it the Safavids?) had a distinct warrior class so replacing the kinds of losses that Napoleon incurred IOTL would be a problem.

MNP · Mar 29, 2011

Yelnoc said:
I was reading through Wikipedia and across this interesting tidbit on Napoleon's page.

It's got a citation and I'm inclined to believe its fact, or at least based in fact.

It's real.

Thande · Mar 29, 2011

Yes, it's real. I think he'd do well, especially since he kept threatening to convert to Islam in OTL.

Cuāuhtemōc · Mar 29, 2011

Pasha Napoleon, founder of a Corsican Muslim dynasty in Egypt?

Yelnoc · Mar 29, 2011

Drago said:
Pasha Napoleon, founder of a Corsican Muslim dynasty in Egypt?

Maybe. Though I wonder if Napoleon might have been killed or at least driven out of the country by a Janissary revolt ten years ahead of schedule. Napoleon was a forward thinker, two words that can not be used to describe the Janissaries of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. However, if Napoleon could succeed in disbanding the Janissaries and keeping Selim III on the throne, the Ottomans might come back from the brink.

As far as France goes, I am drawing a blank. Let's say Napoleon's absence allows the royalists to overthrow the directory. Might Louis XVIII take power?

Color-Copycat · Mar 29, 2011

Presumably the whole Bonaparte dynasty would never come to power in France, so there'll be no Napoleon III to ruin France's reputation in a Mexican intervention.

von Adler · Mar 30, 2011

Napoleon showed to be quite the political player along with being a superb General.

I think he will deal with the Janissaries like they were dealt with 1826. Goud them into revolt, surround their barracks, use the artillery. Problem solved. Napoleon would be even less attached to their power structures and thus far more ruthless.

The Ottomans had excellent light forces - it was Napoleon's excellent usage of light cavalry that allowed him to do his advanced manouvres - his light cavalry screened them from enemy scouts, dominated the quest for fodder and supply in the countryside and provided him with accurate scouting.

He can build an army from scratch in the Ottoman Empire, building on Ottoman strenghts (light cavalry, light infantry, siege artillery) and complementing his own expertise. Remember that the Ottomans had already taken in a lot of French drill instructors to create the Nizam-i-cedid modern forces.

I think the Russians might be in for quite the surprise 1806.

Hendryk · Mar 30, 2011

I think this idea holds a lot of promise, and would like to read a TL based on it.

Valdemar II · Mar 30, 2011

This discussion seem to me of having elements of Hitler move to "country of your choice", Hitler gain power and start genocidal war of conquest.

Depending on when this happen Napoleon may never end up more than a common artillity officer in the Ottoman army, or even if he gain a high position, do the Ottomans really have the same potential as Revolutionary France. Do they have the necessary intellectual and physical infrastructure to allow for giving themm the same dominance. When we see how well France did before Napoleon I would say that a Napoleon outside France won't do as well without France.

That's not to say that he can't have great effect, if he do gain power, through I think he greatest strength are going to be internal reforms rather than military victories

SavoyTruffle · Mar 30, 2011

In that case I can see Napoleon becoming a Mehmet Ali Pasha analogue; and then the butterflies from no Napoleonic Wars will be gigantic.

von Adler · Mar 30, 2011

Valdemar II said:
This discussion seem to me of having elements of Hitler move to "country of your choice", Hitler gain power and start genocidal war of conquest.

Depending on when this happen Napoleon may never end up more than a common artillity officer in the Ottoman army, or even if he gain a high position, do the Ottomans really have the same potential as Revolutionary France. Do they have the necessary intellectual and physical infrastructure to allow for giving themm the same dominance. When we see how well France did before Napoleon I would say that a Napoleon outside France won't do as well without France.

That's not to say that he can't have great effect, if he do gain power, through I think he greatest strength are going to be internal reforms rather than military victories

I think he will rise through the ranks. I don't think the Ottomans will suddenly capture Vienna, but they will be giving the Russians quite the shock 1806 and I would thing the Ottomans would be heading for a nice avoidance of any decline.

Anaxagoras · Mar 30, 2011

Another interesting POD along the same lines is that Napoleon initially wanted to join the French Navy rather than the artillery. Napoleon vs. Nelson? Classic.

Grey Wolf · Mar 30, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
In that case I can see Napoleon becoming a Mehmet Ali Pasha analogue; and then the butterflies from no Napoleonic Wars will be gigantic.

This seemed to me the most likely. Of course, if Napoleon is not around to lead the Egyptian expedition of OTL, then the rule of the Mamelukes might never be questioned, let alone broken

Of course, in OTL the Porte wanted to restore direct rule anyway, albeit rather later down the line.

Its a world of imponderables! Presumably if there is NO Egyptian crisis to require direct Ottoman intervention then at some time soon enough will come some sort of Russo-Ottoman War, again not on the same timetable as OTL without Napoleon playing the role he did in France

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

SavoyTruffle · Mar 30, 2011

If Napoleon is in Ottoman service by that time, perhaps he does well enough that Russia does not gain control of Bessarabia and the Sublime Porte's influence over Moldavia and Wallachia remains; with his political tact he could gain the trust of the Sultan and be made Khedive, with a conversion if deemed necessary.

It all depends, of course, on the growth of the military tactics of a man who was first noted as an artillery commander.

Faeelin · Mar 30, 2011

Valdemar II said:
This discussion seem to me of having elements of Hitler move to "country of your choice", Hitler gain power and start genocidal war of conquest.

Depending on when this happen Napoleon may never end up more than a common artillity officer in the Ottoman army, or even if he gain a high position, do the Ottomans really have the same potential as Revolutionary France. Do they have the necessary intellectual and physical infrastructure to allow for giving themm the same dominance. When we see how well France did before Napoleon I would say that a Napoleon outside France won't do as well without France.

I don't think they have to do as well to have a major effect. But Napoleon could have helped modernize the army, and, perhaps crucially, played a role during Selim III's "New Order" reforms. An Empire that begins modernizing and decapitates the janissaries 20-30 years ahead of OTL will be much healthier.

galileo-034 · Mar 30, 2011

In OTL, Napoleon took command of the repression against the royalist uprising because the arrival of general Dumas was delayed because of a broken axle.
No broken axle would be a POD. Napoleon would be sent in Constantinople, Dumas would take the command of the Army of Italy, would help Siéyès in his coup against the Directory, would establish a more stable republican regime, but without claim any power.
Haiti would stay a french territory, maybe could become a departement.
General Dumas would be the saviour of the Republic.

Yelnoc · Mar 30, 2011

galileo-034 said:
In OTL, Napoleon took command of the repression against the royalist uprising because the arrival of general Dumas was delayed because of a broken axle.
No broken axle would be a POD. Napoleon would be sent in Constantinople, Dumas would take the command of the Army of Italy, would help Siéyès in his coup against the Directory, would establish a more stable republican regime, but without claim any power.
Haiti would stay a french territory, maybe could become a departement.
General Dumas would be the saviour of the Republic.

Do you happen to have a source for that? Not that I don't trust you but I couldn't find anything on the 'net.

mowque · Mar 30, 2011

The Ottoman Empire wasn't Revolutionary War France. I can't see Napoleon rising up beyond some basic attache. The same udnerlying problems that plagued the Ottomans in OTL will still be here. Nappy isn't magic.

Thande · Mar 30, 2011

Faeelin said:
I don't think they have to do as well to have a major effect. But Napoleon could have helped modernize the army, and, perhaps crucially, played a role during Selim III's "New Order" reforms. An Empire that begins modernizing and decapitates the janissaries 20-30 years ahead of OTL will be much healthier.

Who wants to see Boney give the janissaries a whiff of grapeshot? Now that's what I call an Auspicious Incident.

mowque said:
The Ottoman Empire wasn't Revolutionary War France. I can't see Napoleon rising up beyond some basic attache. The same udnerlying problems that plagued the Ottomans in OTL will still be here. Nappy isn't magic.

But foreigners tended to rise through the ranks pretty quickly under the Ottoman system if they were good at what they did, and there were plenty of wars and rebellions in which Napoleon could make his name.