WI: Nazi Victory in Superpower Empire China TL

Berkeley2017 · Mar 20, 2015

How would a Nazi victory in Hendryk's Superpower Empire TL look like? Something along the lines of Fatherland, or a Valkyrie Rises over Europe where the Nazis reach the Urals but Japan is beaten anyways, leading to a US Nazi Cold War. The US then funds the Soviets in a guerilla war against the Nazis.

ITTL however, What would become of the Soviet Union if it is reduced to a strip of land, with most of the west occupied by Germany and the former eastern Russia long taken over by China's puppet Yakutia?

A map of a nazi victory scenario (From a valkryie rises over Europe)

Superpower Empire world in 1942. Obviously, ITTL, the Nazis would reach a lot further east than in this map and the Japanese Empire would be no more.

Berkeley2017 · Mar 22, 2015

bumpbumpbump

Alex1guy · Mar 23, 2015

Got curious and creative, combined the maps. Basically if the Soviets are knocked out (I guess smaller USSR this is more plausible) they are going to probably collapse in short order and Central Asia is going to be Hell on Earth. I imagine that Yakutia would be moving in to secure the region, and Chinese soldiers would be facing down the Reich. Wasn't quite sure what to do with Iran.

Berkeley2017 · Mar 23, 2015

Alex1guy said:
Got curious and creative, combined the maps. Basically if the Soviets are knocked out (I guess smaller USSR this is more plausible) they are going to probably collapse in short order and Central Asia is going to be Hell on Earth. I imagine that Yakutia would be moving in to secure the region, and Chinese soldiers would be facing down the Reich. Wasn't quite sure what to do with Iran.

If the Nazis are more successful, the Russians probably won't attack Iran at all or withdraw once the situation is dire

Clandango · Mar 23, 2015

Wait, why would Germany have those internal borders around Normandy and why would they give up their loyal Slovak puppets to the Hungarians or to split the loyal Croatia in half or annex Serbia? They had too much land to colonize as it is.

Berkeley2017 · Mar 23, 2015

Another similar Nazi Victory scenario is the Anglo American Nazi War. How would an Anglo American Nazi War play out in this scenario because in the original TL the Nazis in the AngloAmerican Nazi War had relatively little pressure from the East given the crippling terms they imposed on the USSR to limit its military size. How much easier would the A-A/N war get for the Allies if the Nazis have to face the full might of the Chinese military in the East, assuming China joins the war? Would China actually join the war? Because given the Reich's control of the Soviet Union would be tenuous at best and how overstretched they are, I don't see the Reich posing that big of a threat to Chinese interests in Siberia and Central Asia?

Berkeley2017 · May 28, 2015

Berkeley2017 said:
Another similar Nazi Victory scenario is the Anglo American Nazi War. How would an Anglo American Nazi War play out in this scenario because in the original TL the Nazis in the AngloAmerican Nazi War had relatively little pressure from the East given the crippling terms they imposed on the USSR to limit its military size. How much easier would the A-A/N war get for the Allies if the Nazis have to face the full might of the Chinese military in the East, assuming China joins the war? Would China actually join the war? Because given the Reich's control of the Soviet Union would be tenuous at best and how overstretched they are, I don't see the Reich posing that big of a threat to Chinese interests in Siberia and Central Asia?

Bumping. Any thoughts on how an AngloAmerican Nazi War type scenario would play out in Superpower Empire TL?

A major difference would be that unlike the original AANW TL, the Nazis ITTL will have to face not only the West but a potential foe in the Chinese on the East, instead of a weakened and submssive USSR in the original AANW. Any thoughts on if China would the join and fight the reich if it defeats the USSR in SuperpowerEmpire? How would the Chinese fare? What would be the long term postwar consequences of this modified AANW scenario?

MrP · May 28, 2015

Berkeley2017 said:
Bumping. Any thoughts on how an AngloAmerican Nazi War type scenario would play out in Superpower Empire TL?

A major difference would be that unlike the original AANW TL, the Nazis ITTL will have to face not only the West but a potential foe in the Chinese on the East, instead of a weakened and submssive USSR in the original AANW. Any thoughts on if China would the join and fight the reich if it defeats the USSR in SuperpowerEmpire? How would the Chinese fare? What would be the long term postwar consequences of this modified AANW scenario?

In this scenario, Germany might have left a rump USSR as a buffer state with China and Yakutia. If I recall correctly, CalBear had the defeated Soviets relocate their capital to Krasnoyark, which in TTL sits right next to the Yakutian border, so Omsk is probably chosen instead.

I'll ask Hendryk over at WIAF whether he has any input.

oreocruncher · May 28, 2015

What's WIAF?

MrP · May 28, 2015

With Iron and Fire, the forum where we discuss his TL.

Napoléon Caesar Augustus · May 28, 2015

China wouldn't care. Central Asia and Siberia are open for their exploitation. Nazi Germany would be bogged down trying to maintain control over their massively overstretched Empire and pose no real threat to anything the Chinese would consider of much relevance.

oreocruncher · May 28, 2015

MrP said:
With Iron and Fire, the forum where we discuss his TL.

Do you have a link for that?

MrP · May 28, 2015

oreocruncher said:
Do you have a link for that?

There you go, old boy. It's invitation-only, so you'll need to sign up to see all the good stuff

Shaby · May 28, 2015

Wait, why would there ever exist such ideology as Nazism in a world that massive butterflies from the existence of powerful Chinese empire would shape? And why would there ever be WW2?

Berkeley2017 · May 28, 2015

There's always the possibility that it CAN turn out very similar to OTL, even if the chances arent the best. Especially because even a more powerful China is still not strong enough in the early 20th century to influence European politics. So Germany gets defeated in WWI -> Germans bring Nazis to power -> WWII happens still seems fairly plausible IMO.

Berkeley2017 · May 30, 2015

Perhaps the Anglo-American Nazi War can go more or less similar in Superpower Empire as was the original. only exception is, of course, a superpower China but which remains neutral most of the war and a strip of land that makes up the rump USSR acting as a buffer between the Reich and China/Yakutia. This rump USSR will most likely be propped up by the Nazis for the sole purpose of a good buffer. In the closing days of the war, with the Reich on the brink of collapse, the rump USSR switches sides and turns on the Germans, backed by the Chinese. Chinese troops enter the USSR and from there liberates vast swathes of European Russia. Now all of the former Russian Empire is under Chinese sphere of influence, making the post war situation dominated by China and the US.

HIM Dogson · May 30, 2015

Well, China, being much more powerful, might actually have already achieved its strategic goals in the North. I can easily see them invading Central Asia to expand Yakutia to the Urals. With this in mind, it might actually be more plausible for China to make a bid against The US and Commonwealth in the Pacific; did the Raj collapse as in OTL?

Berkeley2017 · May 31, 2015

HIM Dogson said:
Well, China, being much more powerful, might actually have already achieved its strategic goals in the North. I can easily see them invading Central Asia to expand Yakutia to the Urals. With this in mind, it might actually be more plausible for China to make a bid against The US and Commonwealth in the Pacific; did the Raj collapse as in OTL?

India was a united nation (including OTL pakistan and bangladesh) in both Superpower Empire and AANW, so in a crossover TL, its probably simplest to keep a united India. Not sure if China would go against the West, its not like they have conflicting ideologies. More likely economic competition but not geopolitical ones. But I guess anything could happen.

HIM Dogson · May 31, 2015

Berkeley2017 said:
India was a united nation (including OTL pakistan and bangladesh) in both Superpower Empire and AANW, so in a crossover TL, its probably simplest to keep a united India. Not sure if China would go against the West, its not like they have conflicting ideologies. More likely economic competition but not geopolitical ones. But I guess anything could happen.

Well, OTL's Cold War era was historically very much driven by realpolitik; the US supporting non communist dictatorships and the like. I could see China driven by realpolitik.

patton2 · Nov 9, 2015

I think that Superpower Empire is too optimistic.
I think the Chinese simply wait until the Nazis were so weak suffciently (by 1959?) And take all or most of Russia. Then I think that relations between China and the rest of the world would be somewhat cooler.