WI: The Eadwig/Edgar Division of England endures longer

[Shiva]

WI: In RL in 957 to prevent a civil war in England the realm was divided along the Thames with Eadgar the Peaceful ruling the North, while Eadwig ruled the south. It was moot two years later when Eadwig died at age 19 and Eadgar reunited the whole of England.

BUT, what if Eadwig lived longer and was able to produce an heir with a new wife? Thus allowing the division of England to endure for at least a few more generations?

What would the effects of England being divided like this be?

 

[Jonathan1997]

Could lead to greater internal development because countries have been divided longer such as Germany tend to be more developed in cities have greater devolution of powers and prosperous because in England and Great Britain most of the economic powers in the south-east but the if country was divided for longer may be less of a north-south divide.

 

[Shiva]

Well part of the power struggle that emerged in Eadwig's reign came from his father's reign where men like Dustan pushed for more centralization towards the crown, legal reforms to curtail the nobility and their privileges, and of course plans for a final push to end 'the Danish religion' (i.e. paganism) in England. Eadwig had the support of the reactionary nobility, while Edgar had the support of the major Thanes of Merica and Northumbria.

So perhaps the Anglo-Saxon Pagan religion has a longer shelf-life in the south? And how would the desires of these different groups affect overall development in England.

Also, any thoughts on what the two realms of Eadwig and Eadgar would be called?

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

England vs Wessex?

 

[Shiva]

England vs Wessex?

Yes and no, now Eadwig's Kingdom would likely be called 'England' by historians... But I could also see Eadwig/Edgar's realms being called Lower England and Upper England. But for the official 'list' of English Kings I think Eadwig's would be the one used, unless they slide WAY back into Paganism.

I did a 'deep dive' into this era a bit and I think that while the 'Danish religion' was clearly on the way out anyways, a lot of the pagan customs could linger a bit longer in Eadwig's Kingdom since his support came from the reactionary nobility, and part of that reaction was the attack on 'traditional customs'.

Edgar's Kingdom on the surface looks more impressive... However power would quickly be concentrated in the hands of himself and the two Thanes of Merica and Northumbria. That could mean that he and his sons could play the Thanes off one another, or the thanes could team up against the King if they didn't like his decisions.

If and when England is reunited in the future, the cultural divisions could very well be much more significant than in RL, and make things much more messy in the realm for generations.

 

[perdu42]

My two cents:

Also, any thoughts on what the two realms of Eadwig and Eadgar would be called?

England vs Wessex?

Yes and no, now Eadwig's Kingdom would likely be called 'England' by historians... But I could also see Eadwig/Edgar's realms being called Lower England and Upper England. But for the official 'list' of English Kings I think Eadwig's would be the one used, unless they slide WAY back into Paganism.

"And Eadwig succeeded to the kingdom of Wessex, and his brother Edgar succeeded to the kingdom of Mercia;"
So reads (in part) the entry for 955 in the Worcester (or 'D') manuscript of The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles. The Abingdon (or 'B' and 'C') manuscripts mention a similar division; the Winchester (or 'A') and Peterborough (or 'E') manuscripts do not.
I'm inclined to think the kingdoms would be Wessex and Mercia. It must be borne in mind that 'England' is little more than 20 years old at this point. That said, I like the suggestion of Lower England and Upper England and find them to be a more than reasonable alternative. There is also the possibility of a threefold division and thus you would have Lower England, Middle England and Upper England.

I did a 'deep dive' into this era a bit and I think that while the 'Danish religion' was clearly on the way out anyways, a lot of the pagan customs could linger a bit longer in Eadwig's Kingdom since his support came from the reactionary nobility, and part of that reaction was the attack on 'traditional customs'.

I believe you are mistaken about the strength of pagan customs remnant in Eadwig's kingdom - Wessex was thoroughly Christian. Certainly Edgar's kingdom, comprising those areas colonised by 'Vikings' could be expected to have pagan customs linger. Yet Mercia also contained a number of shires where 'Viking' paganism never gained a foothold. It is interesting to note that Old English law codes contain numerous clauses on penalties for 'heathenism'.

Was Dunstan's exile was due to personal animosity between himself and Eadwig OR because Eadwig and the nobles who supported him were opposed to the reforming tendencies of the new Benedictinism? Either way, that may make the nobles reactionary, but it does not necessarily make them pagan.

Edgar's Kingdom on the surface looks more impressive... However power would quickly be concentrated in the hands of himself and the two Thanes of Merica and Northumbria. That could mean that he and his sons could play the Thanes off one another, or the thanes could team up against the King if they didn't like his decisions.

Sorry, but who are these two Thanes?

 

[The Professor]

A lot is going to depend on how old Edwig's son is when he dies. If not an adolescent then Edgar is pretty much as shoe in to retake, presuming he's not dead or infirm.

 

[Shiva]

"And Eadwig succeeded to the kingdom of Wessex, and his brother Edgar succeeded to the kingdom of Mercia;"
So reads (in part) the entry for 955 in the Worcester (or 'D') manuscript of The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles. The Abingdon (or 'B' and 'C') manuscripts mention a similar division; the Winchester (or 'A') and Peterborough (or 'E') manuscripts do not.
I'm inclined to think the kingdoms would be Wessex and Mercia. It must be borne in mind that 'England' is little more than 20 years old at this point. That said, I like the suggestion of Lower England and Upper England and find them to be a more than reasonable alternative. There is also the possibility of a threefold division and thus you would have Lower England, Middle England and Upper England.

A lot is going to depend on how old Edwig's son is when he dies. If not an adolescent then Edgar is pretty much as shoe in to retake, presuming he's not dead or infirm.

Well the idea is that Eadwig's son would be old enough to become King of Wessex/Lower England when his father died without being challenged. But if you want Edgar to reunite the two realms a longer division could create a precedent for further splits between sons of Kings in the future. Basically 'England' could wind up like the HRE.

I believe you are mistaken about the strength of pagan customs remnant in Eadwig's kingdom - Wessex was thoroughly Christian. Certainly Edgar's kingdom, comprising those areas colonised by 'Vikings' could be expected to have pagan customs linger. Yet Mercia also contained a number of shires where 'Viking' paganism never gained a foothold. It is interesting to note that Old English law codes contain numerous clauses on penalties for 'heathenism'.

I read the mention of paganism in Dustan's bio on Wikipedia, and the mention of reactionary nobles supporting Eadwig gave me the impression that at least some of their opposition came from pagan sentiment. But there's also the politics involved, which I would concede was the main driving force.

Was Dunstan's exile was due to personal animosity between himself and Eadwig OR because Eadwig and the nobles who supported him were opposed to the reforming tendencies of the new Benedictinism? Either way, that may make the nobles reactionary, but it does not necessarily make them pagan.

Well it doesn't have to be either or, Dustan's exile could be driven by personal animosity AND politics, AND opposition to his Benedictine influenced reforms.

Sorry, but who are these two Thanes?

Not sure, it was mentioned in Eadwig's bio, but I'm not seeing names anywhere. So it might be an error on their part, the source is here: History Today: Death of King Eadwig of the English.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

Is it possible for the split to remain and the Kingdom of Mercia to fall under Norse rule later down the line, with the Kingdom of Wessex falling under Norman/French rule, further widening the divide?