WI the Enterprise in Pearl Harbor?

[Unknown]

In OTL, the USS Enterprise was delayed getting into Pearl Harbor by high seas, and was 215 miles out to sea when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

So, WI the high seas don't occur, and the Enterprise is in Pearl Harbor on the morning of December 7th? In OTL, it was supposed to be in the harbor on December 6th...

 

[MattII]

Losing a carrier would hurt.

 

[HexWargamer]

I guess the American march across the Pacific will be delayed, plus other changes, here and there ...

But it doesn't really matter if the Marines are only ashore on Iwo Jima instead of Okinawa - or still stuck on Tinian - on August 6, 1945.

 

[marathag]

Well, her aircraft would be ashore, along with the Pilots, that was SOP

So hurt/damaged/sunk, Enterprise gets the attention for recovery
However, every bit of ordnance expended on her, is less on the rest of the fleet.

Look how the IJN pilots got 'Buck Fever' on sighting USS Utah, was hardly looking like an aircraft carrier, was an AAA training ship
Disregarding Fuchida’s orders, Six Kate drivers thought she was worth a Torpedo.

Only two hit.

No imagine a real, live Carrier at anchor.
That's a big, tasty target
They would be all over that like white on rice, soaking up far more effort than would be deserved

So Dec 8, Enterprise is a wreck, but her pilots mostly ok, with heavy losses to Wildcats, Dauntless and Devastators parked in rows.

Less damge to the Battleships, maybe as little as only one or two sunk.

As noted above, it all ends in August 1945, no matter what happens in the first six months after Pearl

 

[Alanith]

The War still ends at the same place, the same time. That's the problem with all these WI on the pacific war threads.

 

[PNWKing]

I was going to say this belongs in ASB, but then I remembered that the Star Trek ship was named after a real ship.

 

[tgifriday]

uss robin happens a few months early?

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

I was going to say this belongs in ASB, but then I remembered that the Star Trek ship was named after a real ship.

Yep. Assuming Start Trek still gets made Captain Kirk will command a ship with a different name.

 

[NHBL]

Yep. Assuming Start Trek still gets made Captain Kirk will command a ship with a different name.

For real irony, find a way to make Arizona the big hero ship of the Pacific war, and Kirk commands USS Arizona...

 

[Post]

I guess the American march across the Pacific will be delayed, plus other changes, here and there ...

But it doesn't really matter if the Marines are only ashore on Iwo Jima instead of Okinawa - or still stuck on Tinian - on August 6, 1945.

Why would it be delayed? The Japanese may perform a little bit better in 1942, but are still restrained by their logistics, so can't perform that much better. When the Essex-spam gets online, things happen pretty much as OTL.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Losing a carrier will hurt. Losing Enterprise will really hurt, because she was the designated "elite" carrier. She had an oversize crew of "picked men" who were to be cadres for the many new carrier crews that would be needed.

 

[MattII]

Why would it be delayed? The Japanese may perform a little bit better in 1942, but are still restrained by their logistics, so can't perform that much better. When the Essex-spam gets online, things happen pretty much as OTL.

Enterprise was the escort for the Doolittle Raid, and was later at Coral Sea and Midway. If you lose Enterprise at Pearl Harbour, that's going to have a knock-on effect on subsequent operations.

 

[Post]

Enterprise was the escort for the Doolittle Raid, and was later at Coral Sea and Midway. If you lose Enterprise at Pearl Harbour, that's going to have a knock-on effect on subsequent operations.

It would have an effect on those operations, but not that big an effect on the outcome of the war ( @Hexgamer suggested it would delay the US progress in the Pacific) . The Japanese aren't suddenly going to capture Midway, they still fail the logistics to do so. Tinian, Iwo Jima and Okinawa will happen at roughly the same time.

 

[MattII]

It would have an effect on those operations, but not that big an effect on the outcome of the war ( @Hexgamer suggested it would delay the US progress in the Pacific) . The Japanese aren't suddenly going to capture Midway, they still fail the logistics to do so. Tinian, Iwo Jima and Okinawa will happen at roughly the same time.

Question, which operation is ditched to allow for the Doolittle Raid (which was the reason the Battle of Midway happened)?

 

[Post]

Question, which operation is ditched to allow for the Doolittle Raid (which was the reason the Battle of Midway happened)?

Does there have to be a battle of Midway? I can easily see a carrier battle (or battles) happening at Guadacanal which will wear out the Japanese carrier forces.

 

[Scott Washburn]

Killing a carrier might have given Nagumo the nerve to stick around and launch additional raids against Pearl Harbor. Destroying the fuel tanks and repair facilities would have been as big a blow as sinking the ships.

 

[MattII]

Does there have to be a battle of Midway? I can easily see a carrier battle (or battles) happening at Guadacanal which will wear out the Japanese carrier forces.

Not as quickly or easily. It's quite possible that without Midway, the Japanese make a second attempt at the Coral Sea, and maybe win this time, and could then go on to take Port Moresby.

 

[McPherson]

Well, her aircraft would be ashore, along with the Pilots, that was SOP

So hurt/damaged/sunk, Enterprise gets the attention for recovery
However, every bit of ordnance expended on her, is less on the rest of the fleet.

Look how the IJN pilots got 'Buck Fever' on sighting USS Utah, was hardly looking like an aircraft carrier, was an AAA training ship
Disregarding Fuchida’s orders, Six Kate drivers thought she was worth a Torpedo.

Only two hit.

No imagine a real, live Carrier at anchor.
That's a big, tasty target
They would be all over that like white on rice, soaking up far more effort than would be deserved

So Dec 8, Enterprise is a wreck, but her pilots mostly ok, with heavy losses to Wildcats, Dauntless and Devastators parked in rows.

Less damge to the Battleships, maybe as little as only one or two sunk.

As noted above, it all ends in August 1945, no matter what happens in the first six months after Pearl

A Yorktown is TOUGH ship. Not because of armor, that is a myth, but because of her cellular construction principles and enormous float reserve that gave the ship crew time to seal off holes and manage damage control. That hull could dissipate and pass through blast very well.

What interests me, is that her air group would be ashore. Also her FIGHTER DIRECTOR would be on standby, as would be her air warning radar.

uss robin happens a few months early?

Too much is made of that. Only thing that came of it was (allegedly) four channel radio and the British learn USN flight deck park methods. As a swan about exercise, the inter-operability training could and actually did happen through LANTFLT/ Force H and the HMS Furious and USS Wasp pairings during the Malta runs. THAT would be far more significant as the cross training taught PACFLT through actual transferred combat experienced Wasp personnel, the British four channel FDO methods while the RN was acutely embarrassed at how outdated their aircraft to ship interface handling methods were. Neither navy was as good as the IJN at aircraft carrier operating methods until postwar when lessons learned from the IJN were finally digested the hard way.

 

[1Big Rich]

Well, her aircraft would be ashore, along with the Pilots, that was SOP

So hurt/damaged/sunk, Enterprise gets the attention for recovery
However, every bit of ordnance expended on her, is less on the rest of the fleet.

Look how the IJN pilots got 'Buck Fever' on sighting USS Utah, was hardly looking like an aircraft carrier, was an AAA training ship
Disregarding Fuchida’s orders, Six Kate drivers thought she was worth a Torpedo.

Only two hit.

No imagine a real, live Carrier at anchor.
That's a big, tasty target
They would be all over that like white on rice, soaking up far more effort than would be deserved

So Dec 8, Enterprise is a wreck, but her pilots mostly ok, with heavy losses to Wildcats, Dauntless and Devastators parked in rows.

Less damge to the Battleships, maybe as little as only one or two sunk.

As noted above, it all ends in August 1945, no matter what happens in the first six months after Pearl

Generally agree. Her planes would be on Ford Island, I think, and her pilots would be ashore. I don't see damage being much different; the Akagi and Kaga air groups were assigned the battleships, the less-experienced Hiryu and Soryu air groups were assigned to the 'carrier' side of Ford Island. So take the hits on Utah, Raleigh and the one on Helena (the pilot correctly identified Utah, flew over the Ford Island and went for the 'big' cruiser moored at 1010 Dock) and assign them to Enterprise. The second wave dive bombers will have a target for their light bombs if she settles on an even keel, and complete wrecking her if she hasn't capsized. She may be salvaged, but she is out of the war. Her pilots are her real asset, and they will have replacement planes very soon from the States, and will find employment on other carriers as attrition wears them down. After Coral Sea, VT-6 might go to Midway on Yorktown instead of VT-3.

As for impact, the US may forego the Doolittle Raid. Hornet was in the right place at the right time to pick up Doolittle, but she needs a veteran carrier escort. Otherwise, I don't think TF 39 will reinforce the Home Fleet, Wilcox will bring them west early and Wasp will take Enterprise's place. Hopefully Wasp will get to participate in the 'makee-learn' raids. Coral Sea could go as historic, or Hornet and/or Wasp could reinforce Fletcher and Fitch. That might mean Yorktown gets away with less damage. I think Lexington will still be lost; the early torpedo hit caused the fuel leak that was eventually set-off by the generator. But that lesson in damage control still gets learned.

Eastern Solomons could see Fletcher refuel Wasp closer to the battlezone, and if she misses her appointment with I-19, she could also participate in Santa Cruz. That might mean her loss.

My thoughts,

 

[Alanith]

Yep. Assuming Start Trek still gets made Captain Kirk will command a ship with a different name.

It's entirely possible, I'd say probable even, that one of the early Essex classes would have been renamed if she'd been a CTL. The USN did it with just about every other carrier they lost after all.