As well all know Columbus spent years trying to get sponsorship from various European rulers. What if instead of getting said sponsorship from the Catholic Monarchs, he got it from France? Let's say after getting rejected by the Spanish he goes to France who agrees to sponsor him, what happens? How would the French react to the discovery of the New World? Since he's likely to land in Canada/New England he probably wouldn't find gold. Would other resources such as furs, trees and any items he gets from the Native Americans be enough to encourage France to further explore/colonise the region? France would also be preoccupied with the Italian Wars and so might not be as interested in the colonization/exploration of the New World. How do other European countries react to the discovery? Obviously, Portugal is going to be the first to compete with France for the New World but what about Spain? Would news of the discovery lead to them making voyages to the New World not long after France or would they wait longer? What else might change?
WI: The French sponsored Christopher Columbus?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
If he spots people, there may be interest in sending missionaries and further expeditions to see what else is there, but outright colonisation is probably going to take a while.
realistically, he'd depart from brittany, and thus would probably land in the OTL south; while that could inspire interest in the clergy on the basis of trade and conversion, he probably needs to depart from the south and hug the coast of iberia if you want him to land in the carribbean and thus discover the aztecs.
now, i suppose any french expedition could result in a few settlements, but if you want the kind of cash cow for france Mexico was to spain, you gotta get them to the caribbea asap
now, i suppose any french expedition could result in a few settlements, but if you want the kind of cash cow for france Mexico was to spain, you gotta get them to the caribbea asap
Is this presuming they land in North America? Because if so that makes sense, given Columbus is selling this voyage on the prospect of gold which would be sorely lacking in the North.
Brittany does make sense as the departure site given how far out it is compared to the rest of France, though Aquitaine is a possibility too. If Columbus lands in the Caribbean and discovers gold like otl I could see France actually being faster than the Spanish with colonizing/exploring the region due to them needing the gold to fund their wars more than the Spanish (iirc they were already quite rich in otl).
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Why? Does he expect Cipangu (Japan) to be there?
Why? Does he expect Cipangu (Japan) to be there?
A more general question - Did Colombus just have a pretty vague target of "Asia" non-specific, with an aim to start orienting himself around names of realms he'd heard of, like Cipangu, Cathay, Manzi, Tartary, the Indies, India, once he hit the continent-sized target zone, or did he have a more narrow target band, a country or island he thought was furthest east within Asia, like Cipangu, he was trying to reach?
Does it *have* to meant that? Does sheer straight-line distance across the Atlantic Ocean, and relative latitudes, determine everything about where he lands?
What about the currents at different latitudes?
Also, is it/was it illegal or unforgiveable to make a stop in the Atlantic on an island owned by another European country that was not the sponsor of his voyage to buy some provisions and water?
I would note in his OTL first round-trip Spain to the Caribbean, Columbus included stops in the Portuguese Azores and Lisbon, at least on his *return* leg. It wasn't fatal or anything.
Interesting.
Spain will, at least for a while. The OTL wars are not viable without gold and the only way to get money would be to tax Spain to death, which I don't know if is possible. The Habsburg Spanish empire without the gold of the new world will not work in the long term.
If Columbus sets sail from Brittany, then chances are he will land around New England, which, while fertile, are not exactly Mesoamerican and Andean levels of wealthy. Therefor I think it is possible for the Aztecs and the Inca to actually survive a bit longer and maybe even trade indirectly with Europe.
Maybe, the pandemics will hit the natives like a truck. Depending on the situation, France finds the natives in Mexico already in complete collapse. The Amazon kingdoms died completely, to the point that the natives of that region are still hunter-gatherers today.
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IOTL I don’t know if Columbus approached the French, but I do know that shortly before the Spanish funded the project, the King of England showed interest but was to late.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
France was internally tranquil AF until the 1540s or so. There's time to bust a move. Their only distraction was the Italian wars. Same distraction Spain had.
If I'm not mistaken in otl Columbus sold his voyage on the idea that he would land in India/China, which would generate new wealth for his sponsors. The problem is that if he lands in North America/outside of Mesoamerica or the Caribbean, he's not going to find that same wealth and thus it wouldn't generate as much interest (best thing he could find that I can think of are furs).
That's what I was thinking. I could easily see him setting off on course to hit Northern America but then getting blown off course to the South/Caribbean by wind (especially if he passes through the Bay of Biscay).
I think it depended on the relations between the two countries. I know that Spain and Portugal had amiable relations during the 1490s which is why Columbus had no problem. I'm not sure what relations between France and Spain were like during this period but I could see the Portuguese letting Columbus stop off at the Azores (they were fairly neutral with the French in otl if I'm not mistaken).
This makes sense, perhaps when word of Columbus's discovery spreads they'll sponsor a voyage of their own?
This is true, again the best resource he'd find that I can think of is fur which mightn't generate the same level of interest in the New World as the Gold in otl. Though towards the mid 1500s when Europe's fur supplies start to dwindle I could see the French becoming more interested in the continent and setting up trade outposts to trade fur with the North Americans.
I could see Europe diseases pandemics slowly spreading across the Americas but I'm not sure if it'd hit the Aztecs before the French or other Europeans find them.
I don't think he did but I could see him trying France if the Spanish and Portuguese monarchs rejected his proposal enough times.
Columbus was completely wrong. He thought that China was where North America is. Places like Portugal refused to fund him since they knew darned well that his numbers were WAY off. France, I suspect, would know better.
He got funding from Spain because they were ignorant in maritime matters.
He got funding from Spain because they were ignorant in maritime matters.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
You are telling me Spain was a dumb country. Not just that, the *only* dumb country in Western Europe? Why would Spain have that unique distinction?
4 years after Columbus returned, the English King funded Cabot to go west. Presumably Cabot said *he* was looking for Asia, and Henry VII thought it was worth the risk, or if Henry VII and court advisors knew Asia mathematically couldn't be there, they were betting, maybe based on what Columbus was saying, there was still some sort of golden Eldorado there, or a *passage* to get to Asia, step-by-step, eventually.
Northern Europeans kept looking for a northwest passage through the 1600! If "everybody" accepted Columbus' estimate of the size of the globe was way too small, and size of Asia was way too big, wouldn't it have seemed like a northwest passage might make only for a journey too long to survive or be worth it?
That Columbus was *wrong* is absolutely correct. That contemporary people disputed his calculations and estimates is also absolutely correct.
The thesis that there was some overwhelming international maritime and navigational consensus that Columbus' calculations were wrong? - More support is needed than has been provided.
-The fact that nobody tried his specific proposed route to the east before is not, in itself, evidence of overwhelming consensus. As a practical matter, Columbus was doing bleeding edge navigation with bleeding edge sailing technology and logistics. Most sailors had safer and surer prospects to work on.
He did approach France but they did not like his numbers and thought they were off.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
Yes, well, to my recollection he was trying to go where the profit was, the ultimate objective what the Great Khanate, basically Yuan Dynasty China, that he incorrectly assumed still existed, but, his immediate target was the land he had seen illustrated as the furthest point east off of Asia, Cipangu, aka Japan. So he had a very specific place in mind he was going to, based on maps he had seen. He was aiming for certain latitudes that were in and near the tropics.
The maps he had seen incorrectly placed Cipangu/Japan just at or above the Tropic of Cancer. Because of the length of the journey, Colombus saw this as a necessary and realistic first stop in the Far East, and he expected he could probably do some trade in fine silks, pottery and maybe some jade there.
But of course, he hoped to use it to reach Cathay (China) of the Great Khans and trade in silks, and from there, reach alternately the Indies or India, and trade in spices.
I'll be sharing what I was thinking when I asked these questions in post #5
This sounds like a sensible answer to me, it depends on the relationship at the time, how good or bad it is, but you can't assume cross-over to third party ports is an automatic no-no, except in wartime.
Alright, thanks for responding.
Here I will "show my hand" and say where I am trying to steer everyone towards, and steer them away from, in my comments in post #5.
I think Columbus, even if he is working for France, even if he is working for England, even if he is working for the Holy Roman Emperor, and is setting out with his ships from one of their native ports, is trying *very hard* to reach a destination that is in the northern tropics. That's because that is where he thinks Cipangu is, and where there are cities, merchants, people with silk, pottery, spices, not random people or horsemen living in snow, woods or grassland.
Columbus is also wanting to make best use of the currents and winds at the "horse latitudes" around the Canary Islands. So even if setting forth from Brittany or Bordeaux, he is going to head a bit south to that general area, before catching the winds and heading straight west.
Now starting from France, that presents a problem in that it lengthens his already very long journey. So, he will stuff his ships with even more provisions and tell the crew to expect it to take even longer. Or, to make up for supplies consumed in the early going, he will stop somewhere, like the Castilian Canaries, or Portuguese Madeira, to replenish and stock up on water and dry goods supplies for the dash across the Atlantic.
So he will need a good advance of silver or gold coin, and local merchants where he stops can make a lot of money. France-Castille relations *might* have been OK in 1492, but they would get bad real soon over Italy, so they might be a bit to "complicated" to count on the Canaries as a stop. But Portuguese Madeira is nearby, and relations with Portugal are more stable and less conflictual, so there should not be any problem other than high prices, and the Portuguese see what you're doing/where you're headed.
Then Columbus goes on his merry way, discovers the Caribbean, thinks it's great, kidnaps people, finds *some* gold, exaggerates the wealth he does see, heads on home, stops off in the Portuguese Azores, and gets back to France, and tells everyone, "La Merde, C'est Moi" to a hero's welcome, and gets further sponsorships. When he does more voyages, he goes back to the scene of the (literal) crime, the Caribbean, and pokes all around it, and that is the center of initial French exploration and colonization, not really more northerly latitudes in North America. The French will check that out eventually, but they will be more drawn to making a "project" out of Mexico than Florida for obvious reasons.
By the way, people have posted the Marco Polo map and overlaid it on world maps here before, to give an idea of what Columbus was *expecting* to run into, and they demonstrate that from Europe he would definitely need to head very much southwest, not just blindly west, to reach any of the notably fabled wealthy or interesting parts of the east, instead of nondescript land that is just sort of "there be Tartars".
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
He did ask for a crazy high salary and advance, high rank as governor of new lands, etc. He had brass balls for sure.
1) not so much dumb, which I did not at all say, but ignorantof maritime matters. Spain had spent the last few centuries focused directly only land affairs, specifically the Reconquista. They had essentially no interest in Atlantic trade until that was completed. In 1492.
2) not the only country in Europe that ignorant. But the others were landlocked.
Nope.
[QUOTE =wiki]On 5 March 1496 Henry VII gave Cabot and his three sons letters patent[2][27] with the following charge for exploration:
... free authority, faculty and power to sail to all parts, regions, and coasts of the eastern, western and northern sea, under our banners, flags, and ensigns, with five ships or vessels of whatsoever burden and quality they may be, and with so many and with such mariners and men as they may wish to take with them in the said ships, at their own proper costs and charges, to find, discover and investigate whatsoever islands, countries, regions or provinces of heathens and infidels, in whatsoever part of the world placed, which before this time were unknown to all Christians.
[/QUOTE]
Not Asia. Or not specifically Asia.
Again. Nope. Northwest PASSAGE implies land nearby where you can stop, get fresh water, probably food, probably wood to repair ships.
Very different from an uninterrupted voyage.
If I have my kings right, Louis xii and the catholic monarchs hated each other
They were not ignorant. Ferdinand knew damn well Columbus was wrong, but Isabella was the one who financed him because, allegedly, she was enticed by the idea. Or maybe she just really liked Columbus (in more than one ways) considering the rumors about how Colombus was Isabella's lover or something along those lines, thus all the privileges he got from her at that time.
But in short, the whole Colombus's Voyage was purely an Isabella's "pet project".
He actually got all those things in Castile. Then lost them accused of "bad government" in his lands and for his brutal ways against the natives there.
But one of his descendants (forgot which one) managed to reacquire some of the lost lands after a long, long legal dispute with the Crown, when he finally obtained the "Ducado de Veragua", which while still small in comparison of what he deserved, was way more than what your average Spanish noble possessed.
I hadn't thought about the fact that Columbus would be aiming for a certain latitude to hit China, that would mean he probably hits the Caribbean. I wonder how the French colonization of the Americas would differ from the Spanish?
It's actually Charles VIII on the throne at the time period so he might have warmer relations with the catholic monarchs than Louis XII.
Wait, really? I never heard of that before, especially given how religious Isabella was in otl. Wasn't a part of it also that they just sponsored him so he'd stop bothering them?