WI: The Male Bourbons ALL died in exile during the French Revolution/Napoleonic Empire

[Shiva]

This is a WI that is designed to shake up the French monarchy a bit during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Period (if it already hadn't taken enough hits).

What if ALL of the male members of the House of Bourbon died in their respective exiles during the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Empire?

That would be 'Louis XVIII', 'Charles X', Louis Antoine Duke of Angouleme, and Charles Ferdinand Duke of Berry.

How do you think these men would have died? And what would the consequences of been?

Would the Great Powers of Europe choose to support the children of Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orleans as the Kings of France, despite their father's direct role in the French Revolution? Or would they support Marie-Therese as the first Female monarch of France? Or shop around Europe for someone with a vague blood-connection to the French Crown as a puppet?

And how well do you think this King (or possibly Queen) would fare if/when they ever recovered France from the Revolutionaries and/or Napoleon?

 

[mcdnab]

Well i suspect many would believe the rights to the Throne of France rested with the Spanish Bourbons particularly after the change to male pref primogeniture again in 1830 which meant the senior male heir was no longer going to be King of Spain - Infante Carlos, Counte of Molina was Ferdinand VII's brother and was displaced in favour of his niece as heir of Spain in 1830 - on his brother's death though he was the senior male line descendant of Louis XIV - now he was of course a firm believer in the anciene regime of divine right etc - so hardly an attractive choice for the French or anyone else.
If you are talking before that period say between 1815 and 20 - then the only real choice is the house of Orleans.

 

[Matteo]

This is a WI that is designed to shake up the French monarchy a bit during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Period (if it already hadn't taken enough hits).

What if ALL of the male members of the House of Bourbon died in their respective exiles during the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Empire?

That would be 'Louis XVIII', 'Charles X', Louis Antoine Duke of Angouleme, and Charles Ferdinand Duke of Berry.

How do you think these men would have died? And what would the consequences of been?

Would the Great Powers of Europe choose to support the children of Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orleans as the Kings of France, despite their father's direct role in the French Revolution? Or would they support Marie-Therese as the first Female monarch of France? Or shop around Europe for someone with a vague blood-connection to the French Crown as a puppet?

And how well do you think this King (or possibly Queen) would fare if/when they ever recovered France from the Revolutionaries and/or Napoleon?

The answer is very and takes only 2 words to put.

There were still many Bourbons descending from Philip V of Dpain who was very prolific and whose sons and grandsons by his sons were very prolific.

And although descending from Louis XIII on a continuous make line, the Orleans were Bourbons too.

 

[Clandango]

You get the highest ranking female ones marrying someone, even if the French earlier claimed there was no inheritance through the female line, for the sole purpose of knocking out English claims. But yes, I can see every dynasty trying to marry a good Bourbon for a chance at alliance. Though that may well simply fuel the French nationalists further, since now their King would very likely be a foreignor.

 

[Shiva]

So if the powers of Europe agree to a member of the Spanish Bourbons becoming the King of France (despite Philip V of Spain's official renunciation of his and his line's claim to the French throne) then which one would be chosen to become King?

And what of Princess Marie-Therese of France? Would she be compelled to marry the candidate chosen? Or would she be married off to one of her Habsburg cousins as a possible backup (if Europe in general is comfortable with dispensing with France's 'male-line only' laws).

 

[mcdnab]

In the aftermath of Napolean ie in around 1815 - the senior Spanish claimant will be the King of Spain - so that it unlikely to fly - Philip of Anjou's renunciation of his rights was regarded as invalid by many people (that no-one had the right to force someone to give up their rights as a prince of the blood etc) - however its purpose was to prevent a Franco-Spanish union which still would be an issue in the 1815 period - arguably Spain's move to male pref primogeniture in 1830 meant to many legitimists that the male line descendants of Philip V should be counted as eligible to succeed to the French Throne. Marie Therese is likely to be old school and she is going to naturally object to any of the Orleans line - but her voice is going to be irrelevant to the great powers - who will just want a restored French crown.
Personally i think Louis Philippe - with a friendship with the British Royal Family, married with issue and his wife the cousin of the Emperor - is the most likely choice.

 

[Matteo]

You get the highest ranking female ones marrying someone, even if the French earlier claimed there was no inheritance through the female line, for the sole purpose of knocking out English claims. But yes, I can see every dynasty trying to marry a good Bourbon for a chance at alliance. Though that may well simply fuel the French nationalists further, since now their King would very likely be a foreignor.

There was no such thing as ranking of female princess in a Salic Law system.

It could happen, for dynastic coherence, that the heir of a new male line marry a daughter of the last male of the extinct elder line but it was not necessary at all on the legal point of view.

One of the first thing Louis of Valois Orleans did, when he became Louis XII, was to have his marriage with Joan of France (daughter of Louis XI and sister of Charles VIII) nullified.

Same for Henry of Bourbon Navarre when he became Henry IV after the extinction of the male Valois.

And when Francis of Valois Angouleme was engaged in 1505 to the elder daughter of Louis XII and finally married her in 1514, it was not because he was expected to be the next king but as a way of securing the duchy of Britanny inside the Valois dynasty. Louis XII hoped until his last days to have a son of his own blood and married young Mary Tudor in the last months of his life.

 

[Clandango]

There was no such thing as ranking of female princess in a Salic Law system.

Indeed, though looking over my post I should have been more specific that they did away with it during the Hundred Years War. And I assume most Bourbons women would have been married away anyways, so marrying any but the last princess would not have much of an effect.

 

[Matteo]

Indeed, though looking over my post I should have been more specific that they did away with it during the Hundred Years War. And I assume most Bourbons women would have been married away anyways, so marrying any but the last princess would not have much of an effect.

They did not do it during the HYW nor for the purpose of knocking out Plantagenet claims.

They set this custom in 1316, 1322 and 1328, and the HYW began in 1337.

And anyway, as I explained in an other thread, Edward III had no legal claim to the french crown whichever was the standard for succession.

If women could have transmitted the french crown to their sons, then in 1328 the heir of the french royal crown would have been young Philip of Burgundy, born in 1325 and grandson of Philip V of France.

 

[dcontreras]

Wouldn't the next in line be the Orleans branch descended through Louis XIII's second son Philip, Duke or Orleans? In real life the male Bourbon line did die out and the present pretenders to the French throne are the Orleans Branch of the Bourbon family. Legalists at the time may very well point to the renunciation of Felipe V, thus the "legal" heirs with the loss of Charles X and his sons would be with the then present Duke of Orleans.

 

[Urbanus VII]

I think differently.
With the extinction of all the direct male descendants of Louis XV, it would not make sense to speak of a "Bourbon Restoration".

Talleyrand and the Allies were not stupid: without a direct "Bourbon pretender" - unless one did not want to operate a dismemberment of the country for the benefit of neighboring powers - would not have been of no advantage to operate a change of dynasty (since that the regime could have been equally correct, eventually, into a constitutional monarchy) excoriating France to dynastic disputes, if not to a civil war between opposing sides. Advantageous for Talleyrand and the Allies would have been accept the abdication of Napoleon, recognize his son Napoléon François on the throne of a France brought back to the borders of 1792 or 1789 as Napoleon II (at first even to napoleonide Joachim Murat had been assured of being able to conserve the throne of Naples), put the baby under the regency of his mother Marie-Louise of Austria (an easy tool in the hands of the Emperor of Austria), put Talleyrand as head of government and of the regency council in order to clean up the offices of the state from fervent Bonapartists, Republicans, etc., militarily occupy by the Allies of some areas (as in OTL the the Coalition occupation 1815-18) during the ten years of the regency to "normalize" the country,...

I see difficult the gambling both of choose a Spanish prince than of choose Orléans.

In OTL Spain was excluded after a while from the peace conference and negotiations, and the Spanish Bourbons were not admired for their "competence" in government.

Orléans, although he had tried to clean up his image of "jacobin of the first hour" moving away from the the political landscape during the Napoleonic period and by marrying a princess of the Bourbons of Naples to draw closer to family, he was still the son of the regicide. His position in the succession was not totally clear: has been Charles X to resolve the situation by placing, before the eyes of foreign powers, the Duke of Orléans as the closest to the succession in the event of the extinction of all the direct male descendants of Louis XV.

 

[Shiva]

So basically the options would be either a Spanish Bourbon Prince, in which case it would either be Infante Carlos or Infante Francisco. Or Louis Philippe III, Duke of Orleans despite his father being a regicide for voting to execute Louis XVI, or the powers of Europe accepting Napoleon I's abdication and letting Napoleon II reign with a regency and a reduced French Empire.

Of these three options, which would be the most realistic, and which one do you think could actually stick?

 

[Prester John]

So basically the options would be either a Spanish Bourbon Prince, in which case it would either be Infante Carlos or Infante Francisco. Or Louis Philippe III, Duke of Orleans despite his father being a regicide for voting to execute Louis XVI, or the powers of Europe accepting Napoleon I's abdication and letting Napoleon II reign with a regency and a reduced French Empire.

Of these three options, which would be the most realistic, and which one do you think could actually stick?

I think that the reign of Napoleon II is the least likely to be initially implemented by the allies. Everyone in Europe, even I daresay the Habsburgs, wanted a Bourbon on the throne.

Orleans is too tainted by the murder of King Louis XVI, and at this point has not yet cemented himself within the mind of the French public as an acceptable candidate (and let’s not forget that the voting French public at the time of the Restoration was largely ultra-royalist; for them to support Louis Philippe would be unthinkable).

I personally think that a Spanish prince would be the most acceptable option... but of course Ferdinand had no heir at this time, making Infante Carlos his heir. Whilst I profess rather deep sympathy for the Carlists in Spain, I have no doubt that Infante Carlos would make a terrible King of France. He was more intransigently reactionary than Charles X, not a Frenchman (though of course he lived there in exile) and have no difficulty in imagining him using France as a springboard for an invasion of Spain if his brother does die without a male heir (interestingly enough, his strongest support in OTL was in the Basque Country and Catalonia, on the border with France). Seeing Infante Francisco as King might be interesting, however. He is more senior than Louis Philippe genealogically speaking, was a liberal, and had a sort of cultural panache that would have appealed to the French more than the ultra-Hispanic virility of Infante Carlos.

Might we in fact see more pretenders to the French throne in the form of "King Louis XVII" in this scenario?

 

[Mike Louis]

Assuming the direct French Bourbon line goes extinct during the Revolution / Napoleonic wars the real choice for the French throne is ether between Louis-Philippe (Bourbon-Orleans) or Marie Therese (daughter of Louis XVI) since Don Carlos (Bourbon-Anjou) was too close to the Spanish throne to be picked.

If the Coalition wants a somewhat stable France, then Louis-Philippe becomes King since he's the man on the scene and isn't a foreigner. It also helps that he got multiple sons which would help secure the succession.

The only way Marie Therese gains the throne is if the male members of the Bourbon-Orleans also go extinct, and the choice is between her or importing the Spanish succession feud into France (Fernando VII / Don Carlos). At this juncture, Salic Law is thrown out since the Coalition will never allow a personal union between Spain and France. However given Marie Therese's reactionary views and her age, picking her will only kick the can down the road. I was wondering other than the Bourbons, were there any other surviving legitimate French Capetian families with a plausible claim left? any legitimate French Carolingian families left?

 

[Shiva]

I think that the reign of Napoleon II is the least likely to be initially implemented by the allies. Everyone in Europe, even I daresay the Habsburgs, wanted a Bourbon on the throne.

Orleans is too tainted by the murder of King Louis XVI, and at this point has not yet cemented himself within the mind of the French public as an acceptable candidate (and let’s not forget that the voting French public at the time of the Restoration was largely ultra-royalist; for them to support Louis Philippe would be unthinkable).

I personally think that a Spanish prince would be the most acceptable option... but of course Ferdinand had no heir at this time, making Infante Carlos his heir. Whilst I profess rather deep sympathy for the Carlists in Spain, I have no doubt that Infante Carlos would make a terrible King of France. He was more intransigently reactionary than Charles X, not a Frenchman (though of course he lived there in exile) and have no difficulty in imagining him using France as a springboard for an invasion of Spain if his brother does die without a male heir (interestingly enough, his strongest support in OTL was in the Basque Country and Catalonia, on the border with France). Seeing Infante Francisco as King might be interesting, however. He is more senior than Louis Philippe genealogically speaking, was a liberal, and had a sort of cultural panache that would have appealed to the French more than the ultra-Hispanic virility of Infante Carlos.

Might we in fact see more pretenders to the French throne in the form of "King Louis XVII" in this scenario?

King Francis III of France would be an interesting choice, in fact he'd have a better shot of holding the French throne than most of the RL candidates wound up having.

But I do agree with the idea that there would be a lot more 'King Louis XVII' claimants running around, especially if France suffers economic/political crisis's, either for a prolonged period or in cycles. In which case you might even have a Lambert Simnel type be used as a figurehead for a coup attempt. I can't picture such an attempt lasting long though.

Assuming the direct French Bourbon line goes extinct during the Revolution / Napoleonic wars the real choice for the French throne is ether between Louis-Philippe (Bourbon-Orleans) or Marie Therese (daughter of Louis XVI) since Don Carlos (Bourbon-Anjou) was too close to the Spanish throne to be picked.

If the Coalition wants a somewhat stable France, then Louis-Philippe becomes King since he's the man on the scene and isn't a foreigner. It also helps that he got multiple sons which would help secure the succession.

The only way Marie Therese gains the throne is if the male members of the Bourbon-Orleans also go extinct, and the choice is between her or importing the Spanish succession feud into France (Fernando VII / Don Carlos). At this juncture, Salic Law is thrown out since the Coalition will never allow a personal union between Spain and France. However given Marie Therese's reactionary views and her age, picking her will only kick the can down the road. I was wondering other than the Bourbons, were there any other surviving legitimate French Capetian families with a plausible claim left? any legitimate French Carolingian families left?

By law, Louis-Philippe would be King... However his father is one of the regicides who killed Louis XVI and Louis-Philippe also fought FOR the Revolutionary armies for a time and only fled when the Reign of Terror began.

In other words... He's got black marks against him, and the people fighting Napoleon wanted to restore the Bourbon Monarchy as a symbol of the 'futility' in fighting the Divine Right of Kings and yada yada yada.

As for Marie Therese, yes she is young and yes she wound up being a reactionary, but I can't really blame her for the latter considering everything that happened to her family. However the powers of Europe could claim 'Right of the Sword' and make her the Queen Regnant, ruled by a Regent until her 18th birthday and have her marry some Prince that isn't going to inherit much of anything and have him be the defacto ruler of France.

Now I'm not really sure if there were any other legitimate families left with blood ties to the Capets, plenty of French nobles with Royal bastards in their lines though. But the legitimate Carolingians were all dead or in the bloodlines of the Bourbons at this point in history.

 

[Prester John]

Assuming the direct French Bourbon line goes extinct during the Revolution / Napoleonic wars the real choice for the French throne is ether between Louis-Philippe (Bourbon-Orleans) or Marie Therese (daughter of Louis XVI) since Don Carlos (Bourbon-Anjou) was too close to the Spanish throne to be picked.

If the Coalition wants a somewhat stable France, then Louis-Philippe becomes King since he's the man on the scene and isn't a foreigner. It also helps that he got multiple sons which would help secure the succession.

The only way Marie Therese gains the throne is if the male members of the Bourbon-Orleans also go extinct, and the choice is between her or importing the Spanish succession feud into France (Fernando VII / Don Carlos). At this juncture, Salic Law is thrown out since the Coalition will never allow a personal union between Spain and France. However given Marie Therese's reactionary views and her age, picking her will only kick the can down the road. I was wondering other than the Bourbons, were there any other surviving legitimate French Capetian families with a plausible claim left? any legitimate French Carolingian families left?

For such an incredibly notable and famous dynasty, the House of Capet is actually rather small (compared at least to the Habsurgs, or the Oldenburgs, or the Wettins). There are currently only around 120 of them (though they have been more fecund in the last few decades). In OTL 1815, the Artois line (1883), the Spanish line (which included Parma and the Two Sicilies), the Orleans line, and the Conde line (which died out in 1830) were the only legitimate, male line descendants of Hugh Capet.

 

[Major Major]

What about the Bourbons of India?

 

[Sevarics]

What about the Bourbons of India?

This is so fascinating. Between this and the proposed marriage alliances between Aragon and Ethiopia, it's been an interesting history week!

 

[Prester John]

Obviously it wouldn't determine whether they were legitimate or not, but I would love to see the India Bourbons do a Y-Chromosone DNA test... for the matter, I'd like to see the Spanish branch do one as well.... all those whispers about Isabella of Spain and those handsome officers....