After the successes of D-Day and the breakout from Normandy, there was a sentiment that the Allies could end the war by Christmas. Of course, the failure of Market Garden put an end to these hopes and the war lasted until May '45. But could it have been different? With a POD no earlier than the initial D-Day landings of June 6, 1944 is it possible for the Allies to force a German surrender by Christmas '44? Is avoiding Market Garden and adopting a better plan for crossing the Rhine enough?
WWII in Europe ends by Christmas '44
- Thread starter Shadowlord
- Start date
that's easy
I think the most realistic option would be "Dolle Dinsdag Max".
The Allies are just a little bit better suppield at the speartip and follow much closer on the rout of the german army. This means that after capturing Antwerpen, they also clear the german army out of Zeeland en make the jump over the big rivers in the Netherlands. This would mean that they could repeat the german bitzkrieg over the north german plain to berlin and .....
yrs.
wim Goossen,
I think the most realistic option would be "Dolle Dinsdag Max".
The Allies are just a little bit better suppield at the speartip and follow much closer on the rout of the german army. This means that after capturing Antwerpen, they also clear the german army out of Zeeland en make the jump over the big rivers in the Netherlands. This would mean that they could repeat the german bitzkrieg over the north german plain to berlin and .....
yrs.
wim Goossen,
Short of a coup in Germany, the progress of the war will be determined by the Pace of the Red Army - Berlin was in their sphere and the war will not end until Berlin is taken. Maybe by not pausing outside of Warsaw would take a month or two off of the war and potentially save Dresden from air attack. Maybe also a shift in Soviet tactics to emulate the US strategy of Island hopping, in this case, surround and contain any town or city too large to be taken in a day or so unless they contain a significant formation, and swarm for Berlin.
Other than that, not a great deal any of the Allies can do to shorten the war. Germany can't really do much more to shorten the war either aside from maybe launching an Ardennes style offensive in the east instead, in which case the Soviets will just swallow that whole and maybe burp up the remnants at a later date.
Other than that, not a great deal any of the Allies can do to shorten the war. Germany can't really do much more to shorten the war either aside from maybe launching an Ardennes style offensive in the east instead, in which case the Soviets will just swallow that whole and maybe burp up the remnants at a later date.
Combine a more successful D-Day and Market Garden with a successful Valkarie. The military shifts forces to the East to block the Soviets and in effect allow the western allies to invade and win, the idea being that this will help the Germans with the USSR.
Soviets still get influence over Eastern Europe but we see Yugoslavia and Albania more in the Western camp.
Soviets still get influence over Eastern Europe but we see Yugoslavia and Albania more in the Western camp.
1) Cut of the Falaise pocket earlier and thereby capture more german soldiers.
2) Press harder to capture not only Antwerpen, but also the channels to the sea. That would simplify the supply situation.
3) Cut of the german 15 Army from retreating by the dutch islands.
After the above Market Garden, even in its original inept way, have a far better chance to succeed. But to really enable peace before christmas:
4) Let the americans plan Market Garden. The british sucked at planning.
4.1) Drop the troops directly at the bridges instead of kilometers away.
4.2) Do two drops with all troops on the 17 September instead of dropping half the 17 and half the 18.
4.3) A far more active ground offensive (which access to Antwerpen would help) on multiple axels, instead of using only one road. By this time it should be clear that overpowering force combined with speed was the way to defeat the germans - denying them the chance to manuver their small forces between breaktroughs.
So at 1 October the WAllies have a bridge over Rhein, far better supply and fewer enemies to fight. Onwards!
2) Press harder to capture not only Antwerpen, but also the channels to the sea. That would simplify the supply situation.
3) Cut of the german 15 Army from retreating by the dutch islands.
After the above Market Garden, even in its original inept way, have a far better chance to succeed. But to really enable peace before christmas:
4) Let the americans plan Market Garden. The british sucked at planning.
4.1) Drop the troops directly at the bridges instead of kilometers away.
4.2) Do two drops with all troops on the 17 September instead of dropping half the 17 and half the 18.
4.3) A far more active ground offensive (which access to Antwerpen would help) on multiple axels, instead of using only one road. By this time it should be clear that overpowering force combined with speed was the way to defeat the germans - denying them the chance to manuver their small forces between breaktroughs.
So at 1 October the WAllies have a bridge over Rhein, far better supply and fewer enemies to fight. Onwards!
Paul V McNutt
Banned
I remember reading that the original plan was to have the invasion of Normandy and the landings in Southern France happen on the same day.
Lets have them pull that off. Maybe Paul V McNutt be Secretary of War. He talked about industrial mobilization when he was National Commander of the American Legion in 1928. If he gets that job, US forces are built up faster.
The liberation of France goes faster. With the troops moving to the German border with greater speed Operation Market Garden could work. The WAllies take Prague. The Czech Republic ( There is a not so velvet divorce.) is a front line member of NATO, with many American bases. In the grand AH tradition of reusing historical dates, December 6, 1944 is VE day. In March 1945, the Soviets attack the Japanese. They go on to occupy China. They kick Jaing out in 1946. China is a Soviet satellite. There is no Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution. By spring, the entire US Army Air Corps and RAF are bombing Japan. The entire US and Royal Navies are helping with the blockade. Herohito surrenders before the atomic bomb can be used. The a bomb is a military secret until 1949, when the Soviets announced they have made their own bomb.
Lets have them pull that off. Maybe Paul V McNutt be Secretary of War. He talked about industrial mobilization when he was National Commander of the American Legion in 1928. If he gets that job, US forces are built up faster.
The liberation of France goes faster. With the troops moving to the German border with greater speed Operation Market Garden could work. The WAllies take Prague. The Czech Republic ( There is a not so velvet divorce.) is a front line member of NATO, with many American bases. In the grand AH tradition of reusing historical dates, December 6, 1944 is VE day. In March 1945, the Soviets attack the Japanese. They go on to occupy China. They kick Jaing out in 1946. China is a Soviet satellite. There is no Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution. By spring, the entire US Army Air Corps and RAF are bombing Japan. The entire US and Royal Navies are helping with the blockade. Herohito surrenders before the atomic bomb can be used. The a bomb is a military secret until 1949, when the Soviets announced they have made their own bomb.
Close but not quite. As of early January 1944 the goal was to execute Operation Anvil in early April and Operation Neptune in early May, so there would have been 2-4 weeks separation between the two depending on tide schedules & other variables. Pogues biography of Marshal, and Estes biography of Eisenhower each have a examination of the decisions that led to the cancelation of the April Anvil operation.
Paul V McNutt
Banned
2 to 4 weeks is better than two months. Things move faster. Maybe we don't make the Christmas deadline. I think Paul V McNutt could have done it on the same day.
No, the logistics were not up to it.
The German border was about as far away from Normandy that armies could be logistically supported, and similarly Berlin was near the limit that could be supported from west of the Rhine.
While Antwerp helped, the issue was moving the infrastructure of bases, depots and supplies forward. For the US this took from mid-September to mid-December, which makes it impossible to end the war in 1944 unless you change things before June 6.
Best way for this to work is probably a successful July 20 Plot.
Hitler is dead, blown up by Von Stauffenberg's bomb.
Himmler dies in the same blast.
The SS is accused of the attack, mass arrests follow.
The Plot Leaders have acted with the hope of securing Hitler's prewar gains and a peace deal with the Western Allies. They'll quickly realize that they can't keep them, and they'll also realize that the Soviet Union is going to repay the crimes committed against their people with equal measure.
What I'm thinking happens is the provisional government of Germany decides to throw the war towards the Allies. Germany might be required to "unconditionally surrender", but if Germany wants to keep Austria and keep Western Prussia, it should make a deal before the Soviets eject large numbers of Germans from that territory.
V-E Day: December 22nd, 1944.
Not very likely to happen given how poorly planned the July Plot was. The most best possible outcome is not the July Plotters end up on top as I don't think is all that all that possible, its that there is chaos in Berlin after the assassination removing the remaining impediments to the plan Kluge/Rommel devised and planned for of surrendering the German Armies in the Western front so the war can end in 1944 with the Soviets not crushing half of Germany.
Probably not.
Definitely not. I'll try to get there with the best outcomes for the Allies.
"Force a German surrender" means no successful assassination of Hitler or VALKYRIE coup, which IMO could and probably would lead to voluntary German surrender. Also no additional German unforced major blunders.
1) Mark Clark attacks to the rear of the Germans in southern Italy instead of taking Rome first.
Deleted because the PoD is before D-Day. Damn.
2) More aggressive movement against the Falaise neck. The pocket is closed and the German forces there destroyed. About 100,000 additional German losses.
3) Better executed Slovak national rebellion. (There was a stub timeline on this recently.) The Soviets break through Carpathians to link up with the Slovaks, flanking the German forces attempting a fighting retreat from Romania, Greece, and Yugoslavia. The retreat becomes a rout; Soviet forces sweep across Hungary, which successfully defects, reaching Vienna by the end of September, with 250,000(?) extra German losses.
4) Better planned MARKET-GARDEN. The attack succeeds in capturing the Arnhem bridge and 30 Corps gets across to the edge of the Zuyder Zee. I'll make an optimistic guess here: supply to the German forces in Zeeland are cut off and South Beveland and Walcheren Island fall faster than OTL; by mid-October.
5) The additional losses at Falaise and in the Balkans allow Third Army and Sixth AG to clear Alsace and Lorrain by mid-October...
But now there's only 8 weeks left. Allied supply arrangements had to be reorganized. So do Soviet arrangements. I don't see how it can get done in time for a Rhineland campaign and Rhine crossing befor mid-November.
Just too late.
Not really possible due to logistics. Even if you manage to beat the Allies progress, then to get deep enough in to Germany to capture Berlin (assuming the Reds aren't advancing faster as well) you're constantly going forward. The drive couldn't be sustained into the Netherlands and Germany IRL, going to Berlin is going to be tricky.
If the German military morale in the West collapses due to faster WAllied drive, it's possible.
How about this Stalin has heart attack (assuming it is an anatomical possibility)
New Sov leader wants better relations with West.
Soviets actively assist Waraw uprising
New Sov leader wants better relations with West.
Soviets actively assist Waraw uprising
Yes. POD would be August 29 1944 as I stated thread I Started in August.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/search.php?searchid=14237547
Slovak National Uprising goes better then OTL, consequently Hungary is able to switch sides. As proposed by others, by October Soviets are somewhere behind Vienna and in Protectorate, maybe Brno and Ostrava is liberated (arm industry and steel works), Army Group F is cut off at Balkans.
Germans will have to bring as much troops from west as possible to the East maybe even decimated II Panzer Corps, just to plug the holes on Eastern Front. Naturally this may make Market Garden more possible. And Ouh là là! War may be over by Christmas.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
There is One other possibility you are all forgetting. Both FDR and Winston wanted the bomb dropped on the Germans but they were not ready in time, now if tube alloys was given funding from America and Britain continued the Plutonium option we could see WW2 in Europe ending in 44 with Fat man / Hurricane laugh it,s head off in Berlin with Hitler under it plus you would not need the B29 to drop it in Europe the four engined Lancs could lift Hurricane and Fat Man just.