"You want Berlin: pay the price." Allies pay the prices.

[Sam R.]

Wotcher.

I don't wanna talk
About things we've gone through
Though it's hurting me
Now it's history

Recently people have been fantasizing about fucking the Soviet Union in the late war due to central european political desires, or anti-soviet fantasies, or Wallies fanboiism. I like fiction as much as the next person. But there is no way to seriously fuck the Soviet advance on Germany without the Wallies paying the price. I think of the price as 300K casualties to Berlin, and 300K casualties for Berlin. Additional casualties. The winner takes it all.

So…

What if the Wallies decide to pay the price, 600K casualties on top of historical for a flag on a Parliament building.

The Soviet political system is coherent enough to survive a substandard*1 advance on Berlin. It is coherent enough to survive a different powers agreement (or a different resolution of a prior powers agreement.) Enough of Central Europe will remain Soviet: British, Canadian, Yank and Assorted wives will assume widowship; rather than Soviet Citizens becoming widows. Or eternally unmarried. The losers standing small.

Could Wallie logs, plan, strategic and operational schema provide an advance to Berlin?

Could Wallies take Berlin?

When will the Mutinies start? (Throw the dice.)
UK-Wallies had so exhausted their political capacities that historically they faced massive political workers-control mutinies and _labour_ fucking _labour_ got elected. Add 300K casualties. They're not the soviets. They can't control for that.

The US-Wallies had so exhausted their political capacities that historically they faced repatriation riots and mutinies. Add 300K casualties. They're not the soviets. They can't control for that.


I don't wanna talk
If it makes you feel sad
And I understand
You've come to shake my hand


Historical may have been the best political outcome for the Tory and Mid-stream sample Democrat that the Wallies were controlled by. Allo-historical could have fucked their shit up.

What if they choose to pay the price? Communist Greece? Communist France? Radical Labourite Britain ditches loans, "commonwealths" India and the empire on a labourite basis? New Deal Mark 3???


I suspect that strategic and grand strategic military advisors quite properly advised their ministers that Berlin was a plastic trophy not worth its price. And that a Wallie attempt to reach and take her would create problems incompatible with the desires of the political controllers of the Wallies, apart from the obvious and foreshadowed Debt paying Empire reducing Labour victory.

yours,
Sam R.

post script:
600,000 unwed Yanks and Poms and Friends.
And I doubt that on the third day of rape of the Berlin Siege that the US commander will walk into the streets under law of war and start shooting men engaged in MIL-STD-2525C OFRF-------- as a disciplinary action or failure-to-face-combat regret.

*1 This is reality, the Wallies are going to fuck the Soviet Union with lubrication. Telegraph wire and trucks will still be supplied, but with "unfortunate delays," and "quality issues." They won't be blatant. Trucks just won't start.

 

[Crazyduck156]

Can you try that again but in like plain english?
Are you just asking what if the western allies took Berlin first?

 

[Drizzt]

To reply to what I think is the AHC, since it's not clear what the OP is talking about:
No they'd not have to pay a massive price in blood. In order to take Berlin first they would only have to do one thing: Nothing. As in gradually reduce L&L to eventually nothing once it's clear the Soviets wont fall. Say after Stalingrad.
The Soviets will still fight on without, but will lack the mobility to do their own Blitzkrieg style successes. So no France, Greece wont go Communist if the WAllies want Berlin badly enough. All it requires is for the USAs most overrated President to figure out his administration is full of Soviet Spies and Useful Idiots and act accordingly.

 

[NHBL]

Someone is going to pay a high proce in blood to take the city. The question, I think, is what happens if, for whatever reason, the Western Allies did the storming of Berlin. The casualties might not be AS high, since some forces might surrender to the Americans instead of fighting to the last against the Soviets.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

When is the POD here? 1945?

 

[raharris1973]

I don't wanna talk
About things we've gone through
Though it's hurting me
Now it's history

.......The winner takes it all.

The losers standing small.

I don't wanna talk
If it makes you feel sad
And I understand
You've come to shake my hand
.....

and thus, Sam R. deepens ever further, the mental linkage I have between Australia and Australians, and, of all things, Swedish supergroup* ABBA.

An association first burned into my brain in the 1990s film, 'Muriel's Wedding.'

Thanks for bringing us back to Porpoise Spit, Queensland, mate.

On the topic at hand, Giangreco's 'Hell To Pay' elaborates on the probable price the Allies would have to pay for Berlin, and it's probable impact slowing down anti-Japanese operations.




*why "supergroup" I don't remember anybody else routinely called a supergroup? But ABBA sure was.

 

[RedSword12]

To reply to what I think is the AHC, since it's not clear what the OP is talking about:
No they'd not have to pay a massive price in blood. In order to take Berlin first they would only have to do one thing: Nothing. As in gradually reduce L&L to eventually nothing once it's clear the Soviets wont fall. Say after Stalingrad.
The Soviets will still fight on without, but will lack the mobility to do their own Blitzkrieg style successes. So no France, Greece wont go Communist if the WAllies want Berlin badly enough. All it requires is for the USAs most overrated President to figure out his administration is full of Soviet Spies and Useful Idiots and act accordingly.

The worse the Soviets do in the east, the more casualties the Western Allies will take in the west. And for what? It's in America's interests to reduce its own war losses, is it not?
And no, Roosevelt's administration was not full of Soviet spies.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I assume the point of this is that in breaking their agreements with the Soviet Union, the Western Allies place themselves in opposition to it, at the same time as finishing off the Nazis

Now, I recall hearing that at one point the US were able to push reconnaissance right up to Berlin (using the autobahn???) but the commanding general told the units involved to stand down and not continue to probe.

Given how much the German and associated forces want to surrender to the Western Allies, you can also factor this in. If an entire German army is willing to fight its way out of engagement of Soviet forces to surrender to Americans, then if the West becomes oppositional to the Soviets, they can offer mass acceptance of surrender, by wheeling around German units. The defenders of Berlin are also not fighting to the death if the Americans will accept their surrender, and take them prisoner and throw up a protective barrier around their families. They fought to the death against the Soviets because they knew the horrors that surrender would bring.

Patton is going to get his free hand, and US forces are going to be attempting to take Bohemia and Austria before the Soviets as they are now abrogating agreements across the board.

I assume the point of the question here is how much of a conflict between the Western Allies and the Soviet forces will occur before a mutual stand-off occurs?

The alternative to an eventual mutual stand-off is all-out war? In this scenario, the Western Allies rearms the Wehrmacht and integrates it into their forces.

 

[raharris1973]

Wotcher.

I don't wanna talk
About things we've gone through
Though it's hurting me
Now it's history

Recently people have been fantasizing about fucking the Soviet Union in the late war due to central european political desires, or anti-soviet fantasies, or Wallies fanboiism. I like fiction as much as the next person. But there is no way to seriously fuck the Soviet advance on Germany without the Wallies paying the price. I think of the price as 300K casualties to Berlin, and 300K casualties for Berlin. Additional casualties. The winner takes it all.

So…

What if the Wallies decide to pay the price, 600K casualties on top of historical for a flag on a Parliament building.

The Soviet political system is coherent enough to survive a substandard*1 advance on Berlin. It is coherent enough to survive a different powers agreement (or a different resolution of a prior powers agreement.) Enough of Central Europe will remain Soviet: British, Canadian, Yank and Assorted wives will assume widowship; rather than Soviet Citizens becoming widows. Or eternally unmarried. The losers standing small.

Could Wallie logs, plan, strategic and operational schema provide an advance to Berlin?

Could Wallies take Berlin?

When will the Mutinies start? (Throw the dice.)
UK-Wallies had so exhausted their political capacities that historically they faced massive political workers-control mutinies and _labour_ fucking _labour_ got elected. Add 300K casualties. They're not the soviets. They can't control for that.

The US-Wallies had so exhausted their political capacities that historically they faced repatriation riots and mutinies. Add 300K casualties. They're not the soviets. They can't control for that.


I don't wanna talk
If it makes you feel sad
And I understand
You've come to shake my hand


Historical may have been the best political outcome for the Tory and Mid-stream sample Democrat that the Wallies were controlled by. Allo-historical could have fucked their shit up.

What if they choose to pay the price? Communist Greece? Communist France? Radical Labourite Britain ditches loans, "commonwealths" India and the empire on a labourite basis? New Deal Mark 3???


I suspect that strategic and grand strategic military advisors quite properly advised their ministers that Berlin was a plastic trophy not worth its price. And that a Wallie attempt to reach and take her would create problems incompatible with the desires of the political controllers of the Wallies, apart from the obvious and foreshadowed Debt paying Empire reducing Labour victory.

yours,
Sam R.

post script:
600,000 unwed Yanks and Poms and Friends.
And I doubt that on the third day of rape of the Berlin Siege that the US commander will walk into the streets under law of war and start shooting men engaged in MIL-STD-2525C OFRF-------- as a disciplinary action or failure-to-face-combat regret.

*1 This is reality, the Wallies are going to fuck the Soviet Union with lubrication. Telegraph wire and trucks will still be supplied, but with "unfortunate delays," and "quality issues." They won't be blatant. Trucks just won't start.

Going by your estimates, what if GI Joe and Tommy split the difference at 300,000 and get *to* Berlin and *into* Berlin but share with the Russians still getting the other side? What's the political consequences of that in the west. Because in Germany at least, the absence of Berlin and hopefully Vienna western enclaves, replaced instead by continuous occupation zones, could at least avoid Berlin-centric close-shaves with WW3 that we saw in OTL from 1948 through 1963. If western publics even allow a Cold War to proceed.

 

[gallen95]

Going by your estimates, what if GI Joe and Tommy split the difference at 300,000 and get *to* Berlin and *into* Berlin but share with the Russians still getting the other side? What's the political consequences of that in the west. Because in Germany at least, the absence of Berlin and hopefully Vienna western enclaves, replaced instead by continuous occupation zones, could at least avoid Berlin-centric close-shaves with WW3 that we saw in OTL from 1948 through 1963. If western publics even allow a Cold War to proceed.

Wow my Dad gets out of POW camp 2-3 months earlier and 10 - 15 lbs heavier. How many Jews will be saved? Maybe Anne Franks?

 

[RedSword12]

Wow my Dad gets out of POW camp 2-3 months earlier and 10 - 15 lbs heavier. How many Jews will be saved? Maybe Anne Franks?

Far more Jews would die if the Soviet advance was nipped via an end to Lend-Lease as recommended by some posters here. The worst concentration camps and death camps were in Poland, and would be liberated sooner the faster the Soviets advance.

 

[marktaha]

The worse the Soviets do in the east, the more casualties the Western Allies will take in the west. And for what? It's in America's interests to reduce its own war losses, is it not?
And no, Roosevelt's administration was not full of Soviet spies.

Hiss, Currie, Duncan, White, Rosenberg

 

[RedSword12]

Hiss, Currie, Duncan, White, Rosenberg

That's just a handful. Nothing exceptional. And ultimately, Roosevelt's policy of aid to the USSR was crucial in lightening the burden on the Western Allies. The political subjugation of Eastern Europe to communist tyranny, even though he didn't foresee it, was a harsh but necessary price to pay for the saving of millions of lives. Prolonging Nazi occupation would have been far, far worse.

 

[Garrison]

Given that the post war carve up was agreed well in advance so unless you have the Western Allies doing better in general and taking a harder line at the Big Three conferences it doesn't matter much who gets to Berlin first.

 

[Sam R.]

It matters for thousands of men and women. And unlike the Soviet Union the historical post war strikes and dissention (dissection bloody autocorrect) exceeded the first line of political control over the working person.

The map might be the same, but changing who pays the price changes what’s in whose pockets.

 

[pattersonautobody]

OP is needlessly vulgar.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

...What if the Wallies decide to pay the price, 600K casualties on top of historical for a flag on a Parliament building.

The Soviet political system is coherent enough to survive a substandard*1 advance on Berlin. It is coherent enough to survive a different powers agreement (or a different resolution of a prior powers agreement.) Enough of Central Europe will remain Soviet: British, Canadian, Yank and Assorted wives will assume widowship; rather than Soviet Citizens becoming widows. Or eternally unmarried. The losers standing small.

Could Wallie logs, plan, strategic and operational schema provide an advance to Berlin?

Could Wallies take Berlin?...

I don't see how they do (get even remotely close to Berlin, ahead of Stalin's forces), unless they can get over the Rhine successfully in September 1944 with a successful Operation Market Garden.
The Rhine is a big river by European standards, and that was the Western Allies' one chance to get over the Rhine cheaply and without having to stop for a huge bridging equipment & amphibious assault vehicles buildup as far as I understand it.

 

[marktaha]

That's just a handful. Nothing exceptional. And ultimately, Roosevelt's policy of aid to the USSR was crucial in lightening the burden on the Western Allies. The political subjugation of Eastern Europe to communist tyranny, even though he didn't foresee it, was a harsh but necessary price to pay for the saving of millions of lives. Prolonging Nazi occupation would have been far, far worse.

I regard FDR as one of Lenin's useful idiots. I would have told the truth not sent aid to Russia and backed the German resistance instead.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I regard FDR as one of Lenin's useful idiots. I would have told the truth not sent aid to Russia and backed the German resistance instead.

Was that ever a real option? Of course you arm and supply someone fighting your existential enemy. Even Churchill, as anti-Communist as it was possible to be, supporting vast support to the USSR.

 

[RedSword12]

I regard FDR as one of Lenin's useful idiots. I would have told the truth not sent aid to Russia and backed the German resistance instead.

The German Resistance was too weak to be of any use. Moreover, most of them were still German nationalists and would be hard to negotiate with. Plus, you can't really help them meaningfully by sending them much materiel. You can't send the German resistance thousands of trucks or guns, or provisions.

It's genuinely absurd to suggest that lend-lease should have not been sent to the USSR. The alternative was millions more people dying, many of them American and British too. Sending them no lend-lease at all would have also risked a collapse of the Soviet state, which would have been bad for obvious reasons. It was entirely in American interests to ensure that the Red Army was successful in fighting the Wehrmacht.